FYM -- All Quiet on the Iranian Front - Page 8 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-20-2009, 10:17 PM   #106
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 10:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadelynIris View Post
Actually, now that I think about it, perhaps now is the time to take out their nuke facilities.
Now we're starting to see what this is really about...
__________________

__________________
financeguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2009, 09:12 AM   #107
Refugee
 
AliEnvy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 2,320
Local Time: 09:57 AM
This is a good piece.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/19/op...=1&ref=opinion

Fragile at the Core

by David Brooks
June 18, 2009

Most of the time, foreign relations are kind of boring — negotiations, communiqués, soporific speeches. But then there are moments of radical discontinuity—1789, 1917, 1989—when the very logic of history flips.

At these moments — like the one in Iran right now — change is not generated incrementally from the top. Instead, power is radically dispersed. The real action is out on the streets. The future course of events is maximally uncertain.

The fate of nations is determined by glances and chance encounters: by the looks policemen give one another as a protesting crowd approaches down a boulevard; by the presence of a spontaneous leader who sets off a chant or a song and with it an emotional contagion; by a captain who either decides to kill his countrymen or not; by a shy woman who emerges from a throng to throw herself on the thugs who are pummeling a kid prone on the sidewalk.

The most important changes happen invisibly inside peoples’ heads. A nation that had seemed apathetic suddenly mobilizes. People lost in private life suddenly feel their public dignity has been grievously insulted. Webs of authority that had gone unquestioned instantly dissolve, or do not. New social customs spontaneously emerge, like the citizens of Tehran shouting hauntingly from their rooftops at night. Small gestures unify a crowd and symbolize a different future, like the moment when Mir Hussein Moussavi held hands with his wife in public.

At moments like these, policy makers and advisors in the United States government almost always retreat to passivity and caution. Part of this is pure prudence. When you don’t know what’s happening, it’s sensible to do as little as possible because anything you do might cause more harm than good.

Part of it is professional mind-set. Foreign policy experts are trained in the art of analysis, extrapolation and linear thinking. They simply have no tools to analyze moments that are non-linear, paradigm-shifting and involve radical shifts in consciousness. As a result, they almost invariably underestimate how rapid change might be and how quickly it might come. As Michael McFaul, a democracy expert who serves on the National Security Council, once wrote: “In retrospect, all revolutions seem inevitable. Beforehand, all revolutions seem impossible.”

Many of us have been dissatisfied with the legalistic calibrations of the Obama administration’s response to Iran, which have been disproportionate to the sweeping events there. We’ve been rooting for the politicians in the administration, like Vice President Joe Biden and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, who have been working for a more sincere and heartfelt response.

But the comments of the first few days are not that important. What’s important is that the Obama administration understands the scope of what is happening. And on the big issue, my understanding is that the administration has it exactly right.

The core lesson of these events is that the Iranian regime is fragile at the core. Like all autocratic regimes, it has become rigid, paranoid, insular, insecure, impulsive, clumsy and illegitimate. The people running the regime know it, which is why the Revolutionary Guard is seeking to consolidate power into a small, rigid, insulated circle. The Iranians on the streets know it. The world knows it.

From now on, the central issue of Iran-Western relations won’t be the nuclear program. The regime is more fragile than the program. The regime is more likely to go away than the program.

The central issue going forward will be the regime’s survival itself. The radically insecure members of this government will make no concessions that might threaten their hold on power. The West won’t be able to go back and view Iran through the old lens of engagement on nuclear issues. The nations of the West will have to come up with multi-track policies that not only confront Iran on specific issues, but also try to undermine the regime itself.

This approach is like Ronald Reagan’s policy toward the Soviet Union, and it is no simple thing. It doesn’t mean you don’t talk to the regime; Reagan talked to the Soviets. But it does mean you pursue many roads at once.

There is no formula for undermining a decrepit regime. And there are no circumstances in which the United States has been able to peacefully play a leading role in another nation’s revolution. But there are many tools this nation has used to support indigenous democrats: independent media, technical advice, economic and cultural sanctions, presidential visits for key dissidents, the unapologetic embrace of democratic values, the unapologetic condemnation of the regime’s barbarities.

Recently, many people thought it was clever to say that elections on their own don’t make democracies. But election campaigns stoke the mind and fraudulent elections outrage the soul. The Iranian elections have stirred a whirlwind that will lead, someday, to the regime’s collapse. Hastening that day is now the central goal.
__________________

__________________
AliEnvy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2009, 10:08 AM   #108
Refugee
 
MadelynIris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Craggy Island
Posts: 1,504
Local Time: 04:57 AM
Quote:
Now we're starting to see what this is really about...
Lol. Come on guys.
__________________
MadelynIris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2009, 11:02 AM   #109
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Tiger Edge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The Everglades
Posts: 4,740
Local Time: 05:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ladywithspinninghead View Post
According to a recent Twitter (I just joined a few mins ago in order to follow events in Iran so not sure if that's the right lingo), some of the Western embassies are taking in injured protestors.
The UK and the US don't have embassies in Tehran so they can still claim to be uninvolved in the situation.

ETA: After further research, I think the Brits have an embassy there after all...
We use Switzerland to mediate. (Things I learned from watching Not Without My Daughter...)

Canada has an embassy, however. I just started reading up about what happened this weekend right now, so I'm really out of the loop. Time to scan the interwebs!
__________________
Tiger Edge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2009, 12:40 AM   #110
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator
 
Diemen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,234
Local Time: 03:57 AM
Well said, Mr. Paul.
__________________
Diemen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2009, 11:49 AM   #111
Refugee
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,943
Local Time: 09:57 AM
Tehran June 24, 2009

YouTube - Extreme Police Violence in Tehran 24 June 09
__________________
Strongbow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2009, 01:32 PM   #112
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,641
Local Time: 03:57 AM
Um, the video is shaky at times so maybe I missed something but where was the "extreme police violence"?
__________________
BVS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2009, 04:15 PM   #113
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 04:57 AM
Quote:
"I was going towards Baharestan with my friend. This was everyone, not just supporters of one candidate or another. All of my friends, they were going to Baharestan to express our opposition to these killings and demanding freedom. The black-clad police stopped everyone. They emptied the buses that were taking people there and let the private cars go on. We went on until Ferdowsi then all of a sudden some 500 people with clubs came out of [undecipherable] mosque and they started beating everyone. They tried to beat everyone on [undecipherable] bridge and throwing them off of the bridge. And everyone also on the sidewalks. They beat a woman so savagely that she was drenched in blood and her husband, he fainted. They were beating people like hell. It was a massacre. They were trying to beat people so they would die. they were cursing and saying very bad words to everyone. This was exactly a massacre... I don't know how to describe it."
Quote:
The extent of brutalities on Bloody Saturday is still unknown to the world and even to the majority of Iranians. People all around the world have seen the scene of Neda Agha Soltan's murder, but many do not know that she has been one of tens of people who were killed brutally after Khamenei's threatenings in his Friday Prayer.

In fact several independent sources in Tehran hospitals and clinical centres have counted the dead from Saturday at over 150; yes more than 150. Doctors have been silenced from speaking about it. In fact when less than a week before (16 June) the doctors and nurses of Rasul Hospital in west Tehran witnessed 8 killed and 28 wounded from the day's demonstration, in their hospital, they came out on the street to inform people.

But on Bloody Saturday, the situation was totally different after Khamenei's command to slaughter demonstrators. I have a report just from one hospital not so far from my living place... In this hospital alone doctors received 20 dead and many other wounded. Security forces went to all the hospitals to which people themselves had brought the bodies, to gather all the wounded and dead; when paramilitary and military forces gathered the bodies, they sent them directly to military hospitals; they transmitted these bodies to their own centres too.

In an unbelievable event in the hospital, of which I have a report, security forces have shot and killed the wounded persons before transmitting them. When doctors and nurses bacame mad and went out on the streets, they have opened fire on them too. Now, we have reports that when families went to collect the bodies of their relatives, security forces have urged them to sign appeals against Mir Hossein Mousavi and named him as responsible for the deaths of their relatives. (The argument: they have participated in a demonstration which was related to Mousavi; the killers are 'unkown' but they will find them among Mousavi's supporters again!)

In the light of this situation, you can find how the society is shocked. However, people have not put resistance aside. Local demonstrations have continued, and at night people go on the roofs to chant slogans; 'Allah-o Akbar', 'Down with the Dictator' and so on. Even at night the Basiji militia go to some doors and threaten people not to chant slogans. Local strikes have been held too; in Iranian Kurdistan a strike was held yesterday. But in the absence of independent unions, it is hard to organize general strikes.

The coup d'etat regime is using all its means to suppress and exhaust people. The state of terror is trying to dominate. Whether they can win this unequal war against empty-handed people in this period or not, they will not be able to remain a stable regime. This time, they shed the blood of ordinary people who they claim to be their supporters - not just of some political activists.
.
__________________
melon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2009, 04:17 PM   #114
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 01:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
Um, the video is shaky at times so maybe I missed something but where was the "extreme police violence"?
Iran needs an island on which to incarcerate these unlawful combatants.
__________________
deep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2009, 01:58 AM   #115
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Tiger Edge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The Everglades
Posts: 4,740
Local Time: 05:57 AM
I heard on CNN news (radio) that the Iranian government is actually suggesting that Neda's death was at the hands of the CIA? Seriously???
That disgusted me so much. Didn't surprise me, but totally disgusted me.

Edit: Found a link: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/wash...n-killing.html
__________________
Tiger Edge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2009, 10:53 AM   #116
Refugee
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,593
Local Time: 05:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadelynIris View Post
Actually, now that I think about it, perhaps now is the time to take out their nuke facilities.

perhaps now is the time to leave them the fuck alone. as well as iraq and afganistan.
__________________
bigjohn2441 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2009, 04:10 PM   #117
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 10:57 AM
.
Quote:
Obama Raises Doubts About Dialogue With Iran

By NAZILA FATHI and ALAN COWELL
New York Times, June 26


TEHRAN — Despite new criticism from President Obama, the Iranian authorities showed no sign Friday of bending to domestic or foreign pressure, saying that the disputed presidential vote on June 12 was the “healthiest” in three decades. The uncompromising words emerged as the Group of Eight countries, including the United States, fired a fresh broadside Friday, saying they “deplored” the post-election violence and demanding that the “the will of the Iranian people is reflected in the electoral process.”

In Washington, President Obama accused Tehran of violating “universal norms, international norms,” and saying that the bravery of the Iranian people is “a testament to their enduring pursuit of justice.” “The violence perpetrated against them is outrageous,” the president said, with German Chancellor Angela Merkel by his side. “And despite the government’s efforts to keep the world from bearing witness to that violence, we see it, and we condemn it.”

The president also conceded that the crackdown would complicate his plans to have a dialogue with Tehran, saying: “There is no doubt that any direct dialogue or diplomacy with Iran is going to be affected by the events of the last several weeks.”

...But there seemed little likelihood that the Iranian authorities would be swayed by the harsh words, as a senior cleric called for demonstrators to be punished “ruthlessly and savagely.” At Friday prayers at Tehran University, a senior cleric, Ayatollah Ahmad Khatami, referred to the demonstrators as rioters and declared, “I want the judiciary to punish leading rioters firmly and without showing any mercy to teach everyone a lesson.” Reuters quoted him as saying that demonstrators should be tried for waging war against God. The punishment for such offenses under Islamic law is death, Reuters said. The cleric’s remarks represented a significant hardening of official rhetoric as the authorities confronted the biggest political challenge since the Islamic Revolution in 1979. Yet, because Ayatollah Khatami is not regarded as a high-profile figure, it was not clear how much weight his words carried. However, he is a member of the influential Assembly of Experts and his threats seemed likely to further intimidate protesters whose presence on the streets has dwindled in the face of large numbers of police officers and Basij militias.

...Internationally, European countries were the first to criticize the authorities’ handling of the protests but President Obama, initially cautious, has issued ever more critical comments, drawing a taunt from Mr. Ahmadinejad on Thursday that he sounded like former President George W. Bush and should apologize. At the news conference on Friday, President Obama dismissed Mr. Ahmadinejad’s gibe. “I don’t take Mr. Ahmadinejad’s statements seriously about apologies, particularly given the fact that the United States has gone out of its way not to interfere with the election process in Iran,” he said. “And I’m really not concerned about Mr. Ahmadinejad apologizing to me.” Rather, Mr. Obama said, the Iranian president should “think carefully about the obligations he owes to his own people. And he might want to consider looking at the families of those who’ve been beaten or shot or detained.”

...............................................................................................

Mr. Moussavi has maintained a defiant posture but has few options other than to express his outrage, and he is growing increasingly isolated. He does not have a political organization to rally, and during the height of the unrest he attracted a large following more because of whom he opposed—Mr. Ahmadinejad—than because of what he stood for, political analysts said. And on Friday, his personal Web site was shut down by what his associates described as hackers. Mr. Moussavi also seemed to be sending mixed messages. After vowing on Thursday not to “back down even for a second” to the “election criminals,” he later said he would ask for permission to hold future rallies, noting that Mr. Ahmadinejad had been granted two permits in the last week.

With most demonstrations suppressed or canceled, a few dozen people arrived Friday at the Behest-e Zahra cemetery to mourn Neda Agha-Soltan, a 26-year-old woman shot dead last Saturday whose image went round the world as an instant emblem of the protests. According to Tehran residents, members of the government’s Basij militia, ordered to prevent any gatherings, have beaten even small groups of passers-by so the mourners arrived in groups of two or three, muttered brief prayers and left, the AP reported, quoting unidentified witnesses. Opponents of the election result said they planned to release thousands of green and black balloons bearing a message in Ms. Agha-Soltan’s memory. There were other signs of continued resistance. A few conservatives have expressed revulsion at the sight of unarmed protesters being beaten, even shot, by government forces. Only 105 out of the 290 members of Parliament took part in a victory celebration for Mr. Ahmadinejad on Tuesday, newspapers reported Thursday. The absence of so many lawmakers, including the speaker, Ali Larijani, a powerful conservative, was striking.
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2009, 08:07 PM   #118
Refugee
 
The_Pac_Mule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Vermont
Posts: 1,342
Local Time: 04:57 AM
Is there any Iranian members of interference?
__________________
The_Pac_Mule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2009, 12:44 PM   #119
Refugee
 
MadelynIris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Craggy Island
Posts: 1,504
Local Time: 04:57 AM
Now let the sad, silent, systematic selling out, coercion, and killing of the lead protesters begin.
__________________
MadelynIris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2009, 05:55 PM   #120
The Fly
 
Hobo13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Sunny San Diego
Posts: 72
Local Time: 02:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadelynIris View Post
Now let the sad, silent, systematic selling out, coercion, and killing of the lead protesters begin.

Democracy... Iranian style.
__________________

__________________
Hobo13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com