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Old 06-17-2009, 03:39 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
500,000 marching in silence in Tehran.

it's really incredible. could almost move you to tears.
Iran / today / Krimkhan St / protest NOW #iranelection on Twitpic

There's a song for this that's pretty fitting:

There's something happening here
What it is ain't exactly clear
There's a man with a gun over there
Telling me I got to beware
I think it's time we stop, children, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
There's battle lines being drawn
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
Young people speaking their minds
Getting so much resistance from behind
I think it's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
What a field-day for the heat
A thousand people in the street
Singing songs and carrying signs
Mostly say, hooray for our side
It's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
You step out of line, the man come and take you away
We better stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, now, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, children, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down

The only other time I've ever seen it fit so well is in the documentary I saw about guerilla fighters in Africa that snatched children at a young age to train them to become fighters. It was a very moving moment. I wish I could remember the name of the documentary, but it's been two years. :/
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Old 06-17-2009, 05:13 PM   #77
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the irony, is that the other guy, is only mildly different that the current guy.
If we're framing it on what the U.S. gets out of it, then it's partly true. Mousavi supports the nuclear program. Apparently, 85% of Iran does too, even amongst reformists. Nonetheless, there's been talk of cutting off funding for Hezbollah and Hamas and charting a course for dialogue with the U.S. and even Israel.

If we're framing it on what the Iranian people could gain, it's an electoral democracy (albeit more like a constitutional monarchy, if you keep the Supreme Leader position) and greater individual freedoms.

It's a gamble, sure, considering how often revolutions go off tangent over time, but I'm not sure at all how the status quo is preferable for either Iran or the U.S.
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Old 06-17-2009, 06:04 PM   #78
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^

I agree with you. The unfortunate thing about American mainstream media, though, is their general tendency to label people as "good" or "bad" and the way the story has been presented leaves most people who are unaware with the policy positions of Moussavi or Ahmadinejad under the impression that Moussavi is a straight up pro-reformer, when in reality, their positions are much closer together. But I guess we live in an era of instant gratification, so a revolution isn't worth much in our eyes if it's nuanced.
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Old 06-17-2009, 06:17 PM   #79
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I'm not sure how good Twitter really is as a source of info, there's no verification of stories and what not (granted mainstream press is not exactly the bees knees at this either). Just seems a strange way of getting the absolute truth from a situation that is quite nuanced and at the moment still quite vague. Everywhere seems to be lapping up the Twitter stories too readily for my liking. Though I guess the media blackout in Iran has a large part to do with this.
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Old 06-17-2009, 07:14 PM   #80
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Iranian athletes wear green in apparent protest

By JIN-MAN LEE – 56 minutes ago

SEOUL, South Korea (AP) — It was a simple gesture — green tape wrapped around a wrist — but its symbolism resonated half a world away.

Several players on Iran's national soccer team wore the green tape on their wrists during a World Cup qualifying match against South Korea on Wednesday, an apparent sign of solidarity with opposition leader Mir Hossain Mousavi.

Protesters at home who accuse the government of rigging Iran's June 12 election in favor of hard-line President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad have been wearing green — the color of Mousavi's campaign — in a show of support for the opposition candidate.

The match was televised across Iran, so the move by the players was certain to be noticed back home by the many soccer fans watching on state TV.

Mousavi's Web site said seven Iranian players wore the bands in the first half, although most were forced to take them off before the second.

Among those wearing the green tape was team captain Mehdi Mahdavikia — one of Iran's biggest sports heroes for a goal he scored to eliminate the United States during the first round of the World Cup in 1998.

Mahdavikia's goal in Lyon, France, was the difference in the 2-1 victory — Iran's first ever in the World Cup. The win set off wild celebrations in Tehran, and Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, Iran's supreme leader, hailed the team in a message that said: "Tonight, again, the strong and arrogant opponent felt the bitter taste of defeat at your hands."

One player, Ali Karimi, had green tape wrapped around both wrists during Wednesday's game.

The green bands are not a regular part of their uniforms. In the second half, Mahdavikia kept a light green band on his arm — although he would wear a colored armband to designate him as team captain.

Fans from Iran also showed their support for the demonstrations at home by staging a protest outside the stadium.

They unfurled a banner that read "Go to Hell Dictator," and chanted "Compatriots, we will be with you to the end with the same heart."

During the match, protesters waved the banner, held up green paper signs reading "Where is my vote?" and waved Iran's national flags emblazoned with the plea "Free Iran."
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Old 06-17-2009, 08:21 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by LJT View Post
I'm not sure how good Twitter really is as a source of info, there's no verification of stories and what not (granted mainstream press is not exactly the bees knees at this either). Just seems a strange way of getting the absolute truth from a situation that is quite nuanced and at the moment still quite vague. Everywhere seems to be lapping up the Twitter stories too readily for my liking. Though I guess the media blackout in Iran has a large part to do with this.
the videos and pictures are the only things i'm remotely following anymore. the videos are especially frightening.
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Old 06-17-2009, 11:31 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by anitram View Post
^

I agree with you. The unfortunate thing about American mainstream media, though, is their general tendency to label people as "good" or "bad" and the way the story has been presented leaves most people who are unaware with the policy positions of Moussavi or Ahmadinejad under the impression that Moussavi is a straight up pro-reformer, when in reality, their positions are much closer together. But I guess we live in an era of instant gratification, so a revolution isn't worth much in our eyes if it's nuanced.
I figure let's complicate things further here. At least from what I've surmised from what the Iranian reformists want, it is pretty much summed up in this Karroubi campaign ad.

YouTube - iran election for change Civil Rights

Quote:
1 (Girl in street): Defending civil rights
2 (Boy next to old man): Counterbalancing poverty/deprivation
3 (Boy pushing away donation box): Nationalizing oil income
4 (Man standing on rooftop): Reducing tension in international affairs
5 (Boy sitting next to satellite dishes): Free access to information
6 (Girl sitting besides her mother): Supporting single mothers
7 (Girl with cast): Knock down violence against women
8 (Boy): Education for all
9 (Boy infront of man locking car): Increasing public safety
10 (Girl on rooftop): Ethnic and religious minority rights
11 (Man on rooftop): Supporting NGOs
12 (Girl in front of wall): Public involvement
13 (Boy and girl): We have come for change
14: Change for Iran
Karroubi is a reformist, but also happens to be a cleric and self-professed follower of the late Ayatollah Khomeini--not exactly the Western vision for "change," but we also have to remember that Iran marches to its own drumbeat, plus that one cannot discount the religious element to the U.S. civil rights movement, for instance, exemplifying how religion can both be a form of tyranny (Khameini) and a vehicle for the support of freedom (from the POV of the reformists).

I'd also note that most of the above issues are domestic, not international. And I'm not sure if the goal to nationalize Iran's oil income is a Karroubi-specific platform or not. But considering all those oil cheques that Alaskans get on an annual basis, I don't think we can say that the goal itself is all that unprecedented even in the West.

Overall, I'd agree that we can't look at Iran through American lenses. It's more complicated than that, but I think that their overall goal for greater freedom is nonetheless noble.
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Old 06-18-2009, 07:27 AM   #83
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Is this bigger than even Mousavi? From Twitter (so, obviously, it is more of a gauge of popular sentiment than absolute truth):

Quote:
Remember that Mousavi/Karroubi is not our Ideals, we just voted for Change.

I want more than just a new president, I want an end to this brutal regime.
I'm curious as to how far this could go?
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Old 06-19-2009, 07:25 AM   #84
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Looks like it's going to be all or nothing here. Khameini has no intentions at all of budging, so if the protesters continue, does it mean that they have to topple the government entirely to do so?

Khameini:

Quote:
"We don't claim there is no corruption in our regime. But this is one of the most healthy systems in the world. Zionists claims of corruption are not right. "My dear people, June 12 was a historic event. Our enemies want to cast doubt on it and portray it as defeat for the regime. The presidential campaign has finished. All of the four candidates are among the Islamic system. The people have trust in the revolution and the republic. The Islamic republic is not cheating against others. There is no cheating inside the election system - it is well controlled. There may been mistakes but 11 million [votes] is not possible.

"The guardian council has said that if people have doubts they should prove them. I will not follow false allegations. In all elections some are winners and some are losers. Correct legal procedures should be followed to ensure trust in the process. "The candidates should be careful about what they say and do" [Mousavi doesn't seem to be there]. "Some diplomats from the west are showing their real face and that they are enemies. The worst are the British.

"The street is the place of living and trading. Why are you taking to the streets? We have had the election. Street demonstrations are a target for terrorist plots. Who would be responsible if something happened?
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Old 06-19-2009, 12:59 PM   #85
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YouTube - Iran Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei's public address - 6/19/2009
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Old 06-19-2009, 01:17 PM   #86
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Looks like it's going to be all or nothing here. Khameini has no intentions at all of budging, so if the protesters continue, does it mean that they have to topple the government entirely to do so?
It would appear so to me. Unlike what we are used to in "normal" circumstances, it seems that the regime there is unwilling to sacrifice Khamenei to preserve itself. So I am not really sure what the alternative is.
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Old 06-19-2009, 01:26 PM   #87
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it is going to be a very interesting weekend. grim, too. we'll see what happens.
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Old 06-19-2009, 04:41 PM   #88
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Are we all fully content with the way our own governments are responding at this point?
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Old 06-19-2009, 04:45 PM   #89
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yes

more, would be very harmful
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Old 06-19-2009, 05:46 PM   #90
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yes

more, would be very harmful


agreed.

make this about the Iranians and their government, not about Iran and the Great Satan.
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