Friday night dispatch 1

[VintagePunk]

This Heaven
(Gilmour/Gilmour - Samson)

All the pieces fall into place
When we walk these fields
And I reach out to touch your face
This earthly heaven is enough for me

So break the bread and pour the wine
I need no blessings but I'm counting mine
Life is much more than money buys
When I see the faith in my children's eyes

I've felt the power in a holy place
And wished for comfort when in need
Now I'm here in a state of grace
This earthly heaven is enough for me

So break the bread and pour the wine
I need no blessings but I'm counting mine
Life is much more than money buys
When I see the faith in my children's eyes

-David Gilmour, atheist

 

[~BrightestStar~]

Will there be a 2?

 

[VintagePunk]

Quite possibly. But we're getting ahead of ourselves here. Let's just see how #1 goes down. : patience:

 

[UberBeaver]

I don't believe in athiests.

 

[Vincent Vega]

I don't believe in athiests.

How could you, it's atheists.

 

[UberBeaver]

How could you, it's atheists.

If they don't exist, it doesn't matter how it's spelled, does it?

And whatever happed to i before e except after C. It figures the ATHEISTS would have a problem with that too.

 

[A_Wanderer]

A rather nice lot of sentiment; with the possibilities in this world what more could we want.

 

[AliEnvy]

Is the idea of heaven on earth at odds with the idea of a kingdom of heaven?

This question is for the theists.

 

[Pearl]

I don't think so. Jesus said, "The kingdom of heaven is within you."

To me, that means getting in touch with your spiritual core, or even Nirvana.

 

[maycocksean]

I don't think so. Jesus said, "The kingdom of heaven is within you."

To me, that means getting in touch with your spiritual core, or even Nirvana.

Eh. . .He only said that once, and taken in the context of everything else He said which definitely implied an "exterior" kingdom, I don't think it's accurate to make this statement a core teaching of His.

Is the idea of heaven on earth at odds with the idea of a kingdom of heaven?

This question is for the theists.

I don't think so. Certainly not in the striving for making this world a better place. I think the idea that if you believe in eternal life you will automatically be careless of life on this earth is inaccurate. As a Christian, I certainly don't have the classic "pie in the sky by and by" view.

The sterotype implied by the song lyrics quoted by OP that the believers are sitting around dreaming about heaven while the earth burns, while the atheists are out there soaking up all the joy of life and nobly going about making the world a better place just doesn't line up with reality.

My feeling is that most people, whether believer or not, are pretty much the same, and want pretty much the same things out of life.

Well, now that Iron Horse is putting out the Sunday Dispatches and and VP has got the Friday Night Dispatches, I guess I'll have to start putting out the Sabbath Dispatches on Saturday, and we'll have the whole weekend covered!

 

[AchtungBono]

Whether or not you're a believer (like me), this is one BEAUTIFUL song.
I've never heard it before but the lyrics are gorgeous!

 

[A_Wanderer]

I strongly disagree with the idea of a heaven, either supernatural or must more pressingly in the real world. How many millions have died in the pursuit of utopia?

Obviously a definition of what heaven ought to be is impossible. I don't consider a world where people spend their time in submission to God very nice, religious people may not look at the world and find enough as it is. There will never be a one size fits all heaven (when Fred Phelps goes into heaven will he find gay people? Will gay people find Fred Phelps?).

In the real world the abolition of suffering is impossible given the way we interact with each other, we are not intrinsically evil but we can be selfish, this may not create the best outcomes for everybody but it does make things more interesting.

Eternity is a horrific thought, existence without the hope of inexistence, even in the most luxurious conditions a finite brain will become exhausted and passive; it would be a perpetual prison. My near certainty that when my brain stops I no longer exist as a living person is a genuinely heartening thought, there are few situations where I would savour death - but contrasted against eternity it looks attractive.

/I would love to know of any authors who have written about the horror of eternity, I've definitely heard similar ideas so these thoughts are not pulled from the ether.

 

[DrTeeth]

Atheists are people too!

 

[Vincent Vega]

The sterotype implied by the song lyrics quoted by OP that the believers are sitting around dreaming about heaven while the earth burns, while the atheists are out there soaking up all the joy of life and nobly going about making the world a better place just doesn't line up with reality.

I think it's pretty much the same fallacy some believers have when saying that atheists don't care about the world and their impact on it and other people since for us there is no afterlife and no higher reason.

Same argument, different reasoning and as wrong.

 

[A_Wanderer]

The argument that the earth has to burn for some of us to get into heaven isn't being declared from both sides.

 

[VintagePunk]

The sterotype implied by the song lyrics quoted by OP that the believers are sitting around dreaming about heaven while the earth burns, while the atheists are out there soaking up all the joy of life and nobly going about making the world a better place just doesn't line up with reality.

My feeling is that most people, whether believer or not, are pretty much the same, and want pretty much the same things out of life.

It's interesting that you got that implication about believers from the song, whereas I didn't draw anything about believers from it. I just look at it as a statement that non-believers are very capable of perceiving wonder from the material world. It's all around us, all the time.

Perhaps we are all the same, but very often, non-believers are accused of amorality and having a bleak outlook, and that's simply not the case. People have actually said to me "if you don't believe in an afterlife, what's the point?" Very frustrating. Made me want to scream "This! This is the point! The world. Life. Our relationships. That's the point!" Isn't that enough reason to be grateful, and to want to live a good life? It is for me.

Well, now that Iron Horse is putting out the Sunday Dispatches and and VP has got the Friday Night Dispatches, I guess I'll have to start putting out the Sabbath Dispatches on Saturday, and we'll have the whole weekend covered!

I'm glad it's at least generated some discussion!

Whether or not you're a believer (like me), this is one BEAUTIFUL song.
I've never heard it before but the lyrics are gorgeous!

It really is.

YouTube - David Gilmour - This Heaven (Live In Gdansk)

Atheists are people too!

I was listening to it the other night, and it occurred to me that it's not very often you see or hear statements of atheism represented in the arts, especially ones that use religious metaphors to make their point.

 

[Pearl]

Perhaps we are all the same, but very often, non-believers are accused of amorality and having a bleak outlook, and that's simply not the case. People have actually said to me "if you don't believe in an afterlife, what's the point?" Very frustrating. Made me want to scream "This! This is the point! The world. Life. Our relationships. That's the point!" Isn't that enough reason to be grateful, and to want to live a good life? It is for me.

Question for atheists: do you think believers are wasting their time and are not enjoying their day to day life simply because they believe in an afterlife?

 

[DrTeeth]

Question for atheists: do you think believers are wasting their time and are not enjoying their day to day life simply because they believe in an afterlife?

The group of believers is to large and diverse to make such a definite statement. I have met people who are so focussed on an afterlife that they don't take the time to enjoy the things this life has to offer. Then again, you can also say that about people who only seem to focus on their career or something like that.

My personal belief is that there's no God and that, if there is an afterlife, there's no way to tell what it would be like so there's little use focussing on it. Having said that, people should just live their lives the way they seem fit and a religious belief seems to play a positive role in the lives of a lot of people. It's not my place to judge whether or not someone else is wasting their life.

 

[Pearl]

The group of believers is to large and diverse to make such a definite statement. I have met people who are so focussed on an afterlife that they don't take the time to enjoy the things this life has to offer. Then again, you can also say that about people who only seem to focus on their career or something like that.

My personal belief is that there's no God and that, if there is an afterlife, there's no way to tell what it would be like so there's little use focussing on it. Having said that, people should just live their lives the way they seem fit and a religious belief seems to play a positive role in the lives of a lot of people. It's not my place to judge whether or not someone else is wasting their life.

I like the last sentence you made.

The reason why I asked is because I've been watching atheists on YouTube and quite a lot of them seem to have a lot of anger towards believers, and seem to think that we're fools and we are wasting our time. I've even personally known atheists who felt this way.

I know it sounds like I am generalizing atheists, but I have had a lot of negative encounters with them that it is hard not to separate those experiences from all atheists.

 

[VintagePunk]

Question for atheists: do you think believers are wasting their time and are not enjoying their day to day life simply because they believe in an afterlife?

Interesting questions, and I don't think you'd get one answer from all agnostics/atheists. I can only tell you what I believe.

Are believers wasting their time? Well, to me, that's sort of a relative thing. Some people might think I waste my time by listening to U2, watching their dvds, discussing them online, and attending shows. If you're getting something out of it, and it's enriching your life somehow, what does it matter what others think? Is it for me, is it how I'd choose to spend my time? No. But then, some people who aren't U2 fans wouldn't get my desire to spend time on them, either.

Are believers not enjoying their day to day lives simply because they believe in an afterlife? Again, this depends. I don't think one could give a firm answer that applies to all believers. I'm sure that some do enjoy day to day life as much as I do, maybe even more. But then there are some others who probably live their lives in such a way that "heaven" becomes the ultimate goal, the crux of everything in their existence, and so they probably do not experience as much appreciation for the here and now as they should.

For me, it's not a black and white issue.

 

[VintagePunk]

The group of believers is to large and diverse to make such a definite statement. I have met people who are so focussed on an afterlife that they don't take the time to enjoy the things this life has to offer. Then again, you can also say that about people who only seem to focus on their career or something like that.

My personal belief is that there's no God and that, if there is an afterlife, there's no way to tell what it would be like so there's little use focussing on it. Having said that, people should just live their lives the way they seem fit and a religious belief seems to play a positive role in the lives of a lot of people. It's not my place to judge whether or not someone else is wasting their life.

You must have been posting while I was typing mine. We essentially gave the same answers.

The reason why I asked is because I've been watching atheists on YouTube and quite a lot of them seem to have a lot of anger towards believers, and seem to think that we're fools and we are wasting our time. I've even personally known atheists who felt this way.

I know it sounds like I am generalizing atheists, but I have had a lot of negative encounters with them that it is hard not to separate those experiences from all atheists.

Not all agnostics/atheists (I keep adding the word agnostic, because I consider myself more agnostic than atheistic) are of the militant, angry sort. Just like not all Christians are of the shouty, pushy, obnoxious tele-Evangelist type.

 

[DrTeeth]

I like the last sentence you made.

The reason why I asked is because I've been watching atheists on YouTube and quite a lot of them seem to have a lot of anger towards believers, and seem to think that we're fools and we are wasting our time. I've even personally known atheists who felt this way.

I know it sounds like I am generalizing atheists, but I have had a lot of negative encounters with them that it is hard not to separate those experiences from all atheists.

Youtube is an intellectual wasteland so I would avoid getting my opinions from that place.

I have to be honest though, at times it can be frustrating to be an atheist who's just trying to live his life minding his own business. I can't tell you how many times I've had to explain to people that I still have a reason to get out of bed, that I do have values and that I don't plan on banning God out of the public eye. And this is the Netherlands we're talking about, I can't imagine what it must be like to be an atheist in the US where I'd be a member of the least trusted minority.

Not for one minute I'd let this get to me in a way that I'd develop a negative attitude towards all believers, but I can see why it angers people.

 

[BonosSaint]

I'm not a believer, but I've rarely gotten the sense from many of the believers I know that they spend much more time thinking about an afterlife than I do. It's a comfort, I think, for many, not a substitution. And not an obscession. I've met a few on the obscessive end of the bell curve, but not that many. Most people just go about their lives.

 

[VintagePunk]

I'm not a believer, but I've rarely gotten the sense from many of the believers I know that they spend much more time thinking about an afterlife than I do. It's a comfort, I think, for many, not a substitution.

In the context of this discussion, I'm equating the concept of heaven with making moral choices or decisions that are based on religious teachings, with the ultimate goal of heaven/an afterlife as a reward.

It's been my experience that most active Christians (not those who are Christian in name only) do purport to live their lives around religious teachings.

 

[BonosSaint]

Point taken. The discussion veered a little.

 

[VintagePunk]

It's such a uniquely individual topic that I'm sure everyone has their own ways of defining the terms. It's bound to get a little confusing without clarification.

 

[BonosSaint]

 

[A_Wanderer]

More atheistic persecution of Christians

With that one line, the president “seems to be trying to redefine American culture, which is distinctively Christian,” said Bishop E.W. Jackson of the Exodus Faith Ministries in Chesapeake, Va. “The overwhelming majority of Americans identify as Christians, and what disturbs me is that he seems to be trying to redefine who we are.”

Earlier this week, Jackson was a guest on the popular conservative Christian radio show ‘Janet Parshall’s America,’ where a succession of callers, many of whom identified themselves as African-American, said they shared the concern, and were perplexed and put off by the president’s shout-out to nonbelievers.

Jackson said he and others have no problem acknowledging that “this country is one in which everybody has the freedom to think what they want.” Yet Obama crossed the line, in his view, in suggesting that all faiths (and none) were different roads to the same destination: “He made similar remarks in the campaign, and said, ‘We are no longer a Christian nation, if we ever were. We are a Jewish, Hindu and non-believing nation.’”

Not so, Jackson says: “Obviously, Jewish heritage is very much a part of Christianity; the Jewish Bible is part of our Bible. But Hindu, Muslim, and nonbelievers? I don’t think so. We are not a Muslim nation or a nonbelieving nation.” ...

The Rev. Cecil Blye, pastor of More Grace Ministries Church in Louisville, Ky., said the president’s reference to nonbelievers also set off major alarm bells for him. “It’s important to understand the heritage of our country, and it’s a Judeo-Christian tradition,” period.

Obama's Nonbeliever Nod Unsettles Some

 

[financeguy]

Would give Obama some credit for this, the politically easier route is to spout some nice sounding gibberish about approving of freedom of speech, but also re-affirming the power of Jebus in his life and Christianity in the US, or whatever.

 

[yolland]

I would love to know of any authors who have written about the horror of eternity, I've definitely heard similar ideas so these thoughts are not pulled from the ether.

Do you like Borges? He has what I think is a wonderful short story called 'The Immortal' (El Inmortal). Like most of his stories it's difficult to describe concisely, but the basic premise is that immortality and individuality are mutually exclusive; that forfeiting your mortality necessarily means forfeiting your 'self-ness'.