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Old 11-07-2009, 12:02 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
anyway, if you insist on pushing the anti-Muslim angle as well, then i suggest the armed forces desperately need a "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy when it comes to religion.

no one may speak about their religion, no one may wear anything that gives away their religion, and if we catch you going to a mosque, temple, or church on sunday, you can be reported and you will be honorably discharged.
Wouldn't that take away from freedom of religion, which is in the Constitution and what the troops fight for?
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Old 11-07-2009, 02:14 PM   #17
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Wouldn't that take away from freedom of religion, which is in the Constitution and what the troops fight for?
Some people in the military are already doing that themselves. There are documented cases of Jewish members of the Air Force Academy openly being called "Jesus Killers." There is a radical Christian presence in the military, and it is creating a harmful atmosphere.

This situation needs to be brought out into the open and talked about.

When a child at a school shoots his classmates, it is perfectly acceptable to question the bullying that may have taken place and possibly lead the child to act. It doesn't excuse the act, but it helps to identify the situation and change it for the future.

If this soldier is just put out there as a Muslim terrorist without any investigation of the broader circumstances and atmosphere, then this can continue to happen and all Muslims serving in the military will be looked at with a jaded eye.

The Military Religious Freedom Foundation that I linked to earlier is trying to bring this to America's attention.
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Old 11-07-2009, 04:24 PM   #18
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The people that promoted him, should face consequences as well.
Amen (if this thing plays out the way it seems to be going)
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Old 11-07-2009, 04:29 PM   #19
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Let's hope our commander in chief doesn't claim she acted stupidly.

<>
Quit trolling, diamond.
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Old 11-07-2009, 04:42 PM   #20
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Careful Diamond, we cannot blame religion even if he were publicly saying things that indicate he had a religious motive.

See, it is not his fault. He potentially had been teased and bullied. When you are teased and bullied it trumps the fact that he may have, based on all other facts, been motivated to act by his religion.

If you continue down this road you will be labeled a racist my friend. Your thread will be closed, despite the fact that there is evidence the man's religion may have been a factor. And you will face the scourge of an angry FYM crowd.

There are extremists everywhere - that is a fact - and they cause more problems than they solve in this world.

Everything I read, indicates this man was motivated by his religious beliefs. Shame on the military for not catching up to him before this happened.

And yes, shame on our President for not making this his opening remark.

Quote:
President Franklin D. Roosevelt: Yesterday, December 7, 1941—a date which will live in infamy—the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan.

The United States was at peace with that nation, and, at the solicitation of Japan, was still in conversation with its government and its emperor looking toward the maintenance of peace in the Pacific. Indeed, one hour after Japanese air squadrons had commenced bombing in the American island of Oahu, the Japanese ambassador to the United States and his colleague delivered to our secretary of state a formal reply to a recent American message. While this reply stated that it seemed useless to continue the existing diplomatic negotiations, it contained no threat or hint of war or armed attack.

It will be recorded that the distance of Hawaii from Japan makes it obvious that the attack was deliberately planned many days or even weeks ago. During the intervening time the Japanese government has deliberately sought to deceive the United States by false statements and expressions of hope for continued peace.

The attack yesterday on the Hawaiian Islands has caused severe damage to American naval and military forces. I regret to tell you that very many American lives have been lost. In addition, American ships have been reported torpedoed on the high seas between San Francisco and Honolulu.

Yesterday the Japanese government also launched as attack against Malaya.

Last night Japanese forces attacked Hong Kong.

Last night Japanese forces attacked Guam.

Last night Japanese forces attacked the Philippine Islands.

Last night Japanese forces attacked Wake Island.

And this morning the Japanese attacked Midway Island.

Japan has, therefore, undertaken a surprise offensive extending throughout the Pacific area. The facts of yesterday and today speak for themselves. The people of the United States have already formed their opinions and well understand the implications to the very life and safety of our nation.

As commander in chief of the Army and Navy I have directed that all measures be taken for our defense. But always will our whole nation remember the character of the onslaught against us. . .
Let's rewrite FDR into what we saw the other night....

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"Thank you very much! Thank you Very Much! Thanks Joe for the wonderful introduction. I am so totally excited to be here at this gathering with you. My goodness this is great. While we are at it, thank you so much to all of the congressional people gathered here and the members of my cabinet who showed up to participate in this event. Thanks for being here. You all are doing such a great job. Thanks for your efforts. This is just the beginning. We are going to follow up and this is our TOP prioirity for us. We are not going to give lip service to this. I plan to make some much broader comments about the challenges that lay ahead. Oh, and by the way, Japan attacked us. We do not know the details. A number of Americans have been killed. More were wounded. My prayers are with the wounded and the families of the fallen for those who serve at Pearl Harbor. It is difficult to lose these men and women. It is terrible that they were attacked on American soil. I am getting information from everyone to check into this. Let's not rush to judgement so we can get some answers. There is no greater responsibility to make sure our men and women in uniform are safe when they are home. Let's keep them in our prayers. But let's get back to this top priority and our work at this conference."

Yep...FDR...what the hell was he thinking? LOL

You are damn right I find this offensive. I wore this countries uniform, and the fact that this man did not see fit to address this as his "TOP" priority at that moment sickens me. These men and women should have been the first thing he spoke about.

I have cut this president slack, because like poker, sometimes you get dealt a shite hand. Well this is not Bush's fault. This happened on his watch and anyone wearing the uniform of this country deserves to be the "TOP" priority. PERIOD. You cannot fix everything Mr. President. What has happened to the native people cannot be fixed today or tomorrow.

Those soldiers and families at Fort Hood should have been the TOP priority at that moment. That should have been your opening remark, and by now you or your vice-president should have been to Fort Hood to be with them.
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Old 11-07-2009, 04:42 PM   #21
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There is a radical Christian presence in the military, and it is creating a harmful atmosphere.
Are you in the military? This statement is not correct. The overwhelming majority of the soldiers are very casual Christians (and I would say - non-practicing), if that. If you've seen Jarhead - you've seen a good snapshot of soldier life.

Religious services are lightly attended - across the board.
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Old 11-07-2009, 04:55 PM   #22
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One of things that I loved about the military was the fact that our ability to practice our religion was not infringed upon. We were family in the barracks, and I did not sit there worrying, my goodness, he is a jew, muslim, ect.... I was thankful I was able to attend religious services for many reasons.

I have NEVER encountered a group in the service that persecuted ANYONE for their religious beliefs.

I have encountered ASSHOLES. And assholes come in all shapes and sizes. The racists no matter what there color were weeded out. The ones that got through, were too stupid and got themselves weeded out. That's the thing about assholes and racists. They are usually too stupid to hide who they are, and nobody wants to be around them, and they get weeded out.

It seems to me, that one Major Asshole, was not weeded out. It seems to me that this racist asshole abused his position, snuck a gun onto post, and killed people because he believes his religion makes him a hero for doing it.

I wonder, was it too politically correct to call him out on his prior behavior that indicated he was a religious racists zealot? Is that how he survived in the service?
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Old 11-07-2009, 05:20 PM   #23
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I don't really want to comment on this because frankly I haven't kept up with the developments (am on hour 73 of this work week, which is to say nothing of the fact I also worked straight through last weekend).

But I did briefly hear on the news that apparently he may have had a history of mental illness and that he had indicated "no religious preference" on his personal records...both sort of make me wonder how closely he was actually scrutinized by his superiors.

Really sad story, hopefully the people currently in the hospital will all recover as well as they possibly can.
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Old 11-07-2009, 05:24 PM   #24
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That he was a religious person is undeniable.

Let's see how this person engaged in this terrorist act:

He planned it out weeks to months in advance.

He posted anti American statements on the internet while being a member of US Military=Treason.

He wore his religious Muslim clothes often and visited his Mosque often.

He counseled wounded American Veterans that he actually was sympathetic for the jihadists.

He shouted: "God Is Great" before killing unarmed American soldiers, but let's leave religion and his religious beliefs out of it.

Free Your Mind=where one is not free to state the obvious.

<>
SHOCKING! I am sure there are 100's even 1000's of people from military's all over the world that practice a religion that isn't the predominant one in their country. People do comit crimes in the name of religion, but it isn't just muslim people. Look at Christians. Look at the fact that it is easly the dominant religion in the US and the US and its people seem intent on invading every muslim nation, and for what? They say it is to protect their freedom? What about the freedom of millions of innocent Iraqi, Afghanistani and most likel soon Irani HUMAN BEING.

If anyone mentions the World Trade Centre in reaction to that statement is proving my point. The work of one extremist is not the basis for invading a completely separate country. There are white, christian extremists too, yet I don't really remember that last time a western nation was invaded. 9/11 was terrible, but taking retribution on millions of innocent people in an irrelevant quest is a worse act.

Can we leave the religious bullshit out of the arguement. Even if the motivation was religion, it cant be used to prove the violence of a particular people, because there are abberations in every religious group.
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Old 11-07-2009, 05:25 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Dreadsox View Post

I wonder, was it too politically correct to call him out on his prior behavior that indicated he was a religious racists zealot? Is that how he survived in the service?
As a current military officer, I can tell you for a fact that many senior officers wear the PC hat more often than the Common Sense hat. Like any organization, there is manuevering and politicking for promotions and key resume builders - this type of leader is more concerned about a mark on their record by a charge of racism or religious intolerance than they are about their fellow soldiers. Quite sad.

Should Muslims be allowed in the Army? Yes. Should some Muslims in key positions with tons of authority be watched a little more closely considering we at war with two Muslim countries and Global War that many Muslims believe is a war on the entire Muslim world? I think that would be wise.
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Old 11-07-2009, 06:11 PM   #26
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Are you in the military? This statement is not correct. The overwhelming majority of the soldiers are very casual Christians (and I would say - non-practicing), if that. If you've seen Jarhead - you've seen a good snapshot of soldier life.

Religious services are lightly attended - across the board.
No, I am not in the military. I have close connections, but that should not have any bearing on this discussion.

I said there is a radical Christian presence in the military. Presence means a small, but potentially influential group.

Did you check out the link? If a minority is voicing concerns about a potentially hostile atmosphere, it should be listened to.

Welcome to Military Religious Freedom Foundation

Read their mission statement. Military Religious Freedom Foundation :: About the Foundation

Again, I am in no way defending this shooter. I am just trying to point out that there could be a larger situation that needs to be addressed rather than just a disturbed person killing innocent people.
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Old 11-07-2009, 06:20 PM   #27
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We should be very proud that we have such a diverse military (ethnic/religious or non/gender). It is the best way to show the people of the world that Americans have strength in our diversity. If we are going to continue with our nation-building activities in the Iraq and Afghanistan, we need to get our internal problems under control so that the image we project to the people we are trying to help is unity and strength. Not that it's not there already, but clearly this shooting is going to get attention and certainly how it is dealt with will be scrutinized by the world.
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Old 11-07-2009, 07:24 PM   #28
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No, I am not in the military. disturbed person killing innocent people.
The majority of Americans will not see this as just a "disturbed person killing innocent people".

He methodically planned this out...

As John Wayne Gacy was a plotting mass murderer and Timothy McViegh was a plotting mass murderer, so is Nidal Malik Hasan, and deserves the same penalty.

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Old 11-07-2009, 07:44 PM   #29
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Careful Diamond, we cannot blame religion even if he were publicly saying things that indicate he had a religious motive.

See, it is not his fault. He potentially had been teased and bullied. .
Only <> can be accused of trolling in his own thread..

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Old 11-07-2009, 08:02 PM   #30
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SHOCKING! I am sure there are 100's even 1000's of people from military's all over the world that practice a religion that isn't the predominant one in their country. People do comit crimes in the name of religion, but it isn't just muslim people. Look at Christians. Look at the fact that it is easly the dominant religion in the US and the US and its people seem intent on invading every muslim nation, and for what? They say it is to protect their freedom? What about the freedom of millions of innocent Iraqi, Afghanistani and most likel soon Irani HUMAN BEING.

If anyone mentions the World Trade Centre in reaction to that statement is proving my point. The work of one extremist is not the basis for invading a completely separate country. There are white, christian extremists too, yet I don't really remember that last time a western nation was invaded. 9/11 was terrible, but taking retribution on millions of innocent people in an irrelevant quest is a worse act.

Can we leave the religious bullshit out of the arguement. Even if the motivation was religion, it cant be used to prove the violence of a particular people, because there are abberations in every religious group.
Has the United States in its history invaded another nation and stayed behind as an occupier? I fail to see us invading every Muslim nation. I did see us invade Afghanistan after the Taliban refused to do something about Al Qaeda. I did see us invade Iraq, a country that violated its cease fire agreement and international law time and time again after the Gulf War in which they invaded Kuwaitt. So no, I do not buy your premise that we are invading every Muslim nation.

No, I would prefer to keep the religious argument on the front of this. I hate relegious extremism no matter what the religion.

That said, religion seems to have something to do with 9/11 and it most definitely has had something to do with what happened the other day.

Maybe we can chalk it all up to mental illness.
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