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Old 08-02-2009, 12:43 AM   #1
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Father Prays Instead of Calling 911: Daughter Dies

Not sure if this is news to anyone else, but it certainly is to me. How ignorant and uneducated can one be? This isn't Abraham and Isaac and other Bible stories for goodness sakes.

BBC NEWS | Americas | Praying man let his daughter die

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A US jury has found a man guilty of killing his sick 11-year-old daughter by praying for her recovery rather than seeking medical care.

The man, Dale Neumann, told a court in the state of Wisconsin he believed God could heal his daughter.

She died of a treatable disease - undiagnosed diabetes - at home in rural Wisconsin in March last year, as people surrounded her and prayed.

Neumann's wife, Leilani Neumann, was convicted earlier this year.

The couple, who were both convicted of second-degree reckless homicide, face up to 25 years in prison when they are sentenced in October.

A lawyer representing Dale Neumann said he would appeal.

'Faith healing'

During the trial, medical experts told the court that Neumann's daughter could have survived if she had received treatment, including insulin and fluids, before she stopped breathing.

On Thursday Neumann, who is 47 and studied in the past to be a Pentecostal minister, said he thought God would heal his daughter.

"If I go to the doctor, I am putting the doctor before God," he said. "I am not believing what he said he would do."

He also said he thought his daughter had had flu or a fever, and that he had not realised how ill she was.

Neumann's lawyer said he had been convinced that his "faith healing" was working, and that he had committed no crime.

The prosecution argued that Neumann had minimised his daughter's illness and that he had allowed her to die as a selfish act of faith.

They said the girl should have been taken to hospital because she was unable to walk, talk, eat or drink.

Instead, an ambulance was only called once the girl had stopped breathing.
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Old 08-02-2009, 01:14 AM   #2
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"...he thought God would heal his daughter."


This was his first mistake

Nothing Fails Like Prayer

The day I started to look at life through the eyes of those who HAVE suffered who have had misery , pain , murder etc etc etc etc ad nauseum is the day I realized that if a so called "loving" God would not help them how could I be so stupid to believe He would do the same for me & my children& those I love

Fall of 2006 when those Amish School Girls were lined up like cattle & executed was the catalyst to my loss of faith

If there is a God He is one thing

Irrelevant

Sorry for the rant...back to the dummy in the article what an AssClown !
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Old 08-02-2009, 02:00 AM   #3
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These people who treat prayer as a magical spell, a contract to be fulfilled... make a mockery of everything Christianity is about.

I believe the mindset stems from the vision of a God who regularly 'lets' or 'causes' things to happen, a view which is fairly alien to where I come from. Such a micromanaging God goes against anything we know of the natural world and its operation. And an organic human body is most certainly part of that.

Now the Catholic Church admittedly has its miracles and so forth, but a miracle (without getting into what I believe about such things) is by definition the exception, not the rule.

The crude old saw about God helping those who help themselves springs to mind here. Medical help (human beings who spend their lives training and practising medicine which is one of humanity's many hard-won skills) could have been sought to help the girl; it was never sought. That is hardly God's fault.
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Old 08-02-2009, 02:22 AM   #4
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Apparently this is the "church" (or more correctly online community, since it has no physical existence) this couple belonged to:

Unleavened Bread Ministries - Warning: These Are America's Last Days

I'd been going to ask if anyone here knows enough about Pentecostal doctrine to explain what this man might have meant when he said "I am not believing what He said He would do," but after glancing at the link, I'm guessing this particular cyber-ministry is too ideologically eccentric to fit into any such paradigm.

Awful story.
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Old 08-02-2009, 03:11 AM   #5
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I use to go to a Pentecostal church, I know they are extremely strong headed about the healing of God, and prayer alone, and Gods healing can make things better. Now I was never taught to not seek medical help when needed, I believe in Gods healing and power but does that mean to not seek medical help? No cause I believe God's healing can also go through those of his children such as doctors, etc etc.

That was a lack of knowledge and brains on that guys behalf, How alful to be so selfish in prayer you kill your own child. I understand having faith in God etc, but come on to let your own child die and not get medical help when needed is a bit much. This is not Gods fault at all IMO. It was thoughs that didn't even think twice of getting the girl help fault.

May she rest in eternal peace in heaven, and may God be with those that did this. How sad indeed.

I pretty much agree with what kieran McConville said
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Old 08-02-2009, 03:14 AM   #6
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Is this the family with the dad who ran off with the child because a judge was going to force them to get her medical treatment, and they wanted to continue to pray instead (I think they didn't believe in modern medicine or something like that), or is that another family?

I may be a Christian, but, I find no reason for someone to avoid a doctor. That's just...stupid? Ignorant? I really don't know the right word.
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Old 08-02-2009, 03:26 AM   #7
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I think it's both Bono_212 IMO
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Old 08-02-2009, 10:21 AM   #8
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Wow.. that is disturbing. The poor child.
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Old 08-02-2009, 12:22 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kieran McConville View Post

The crude old saw about God helping those who help themselves springs to mind here. Medical help (human beings who spend their lives training and practising medicine which is one of humanity's many hard-won skills) could have been sought to help the girl; it was never sought. That is hardly God's fault.
Absolutely
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Old 08-02-2009, 02:55 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yolland View Post
I'd been going to ask if anyone here knows enough about Pentecostal doctrine to explain what this man might have meant when he said "I am not believing what He said He would do," but after glancing at the link, I'm guessing this particular cyber-ministry is too ideologically eccentric to fit into any such paradigm.
Awful story.
Believe it or not I graduated in 2003 from a Seminary LL

Anyway what they are referring to is numerous passages in the bible one that comes to mind is in the book of James I believe chapter five that says something to the effect of "the prayer of a righteous man availeth much..." & another one that says something like "the prayer of faith shall save the sick...."

James 5:14-16

For them God is in a Win Win situation

If He heals them then glory to God for doing so if they die such as this case sad to say then God has an out as well b/c they will just say & believe it was His will to take her to The Disney World in the sky
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Old 08-02-2009, 03:36 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by SethVincent View Post
If He heals them then glory to God for doing so if they die such as this case sad to say then God has an out as well b/c they will just say & believe it was His will to take her to The Disney World in the sky
I think I regurgitated in my throat.
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Old 08-02-2009, 04:41 PM   #12
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see how far your faith gets you....
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Old 08-02-2009, 06:43 PM   #13
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Old 08-03-2009, 01:08 AM   #14
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"For them God is in a Win Win situation

If He heals them then glory to God for doing so if they die such as this case sad to say then God has an out as well b/c they will just say & believe it was His will to take her to The Disney World in the sky" Quoted from Seth Vincent's post

Humans deciding what is God's will is a very dangerous thing.
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Old 08-03-2009, 08:13 AM   #15
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Quote:
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Humans deciding what is God's will is a very dangerous thing.
Yeah like assuming a meager human can change the will of God if they pray hard enough? If only that worked, imagine how peaceful, or how awful, the world could be...

I am a Christian but those who know me know I have a pretty bitter view as far as "petitionary prayer" goes, stemming from the fact that Jesus himself prayed to God and his prayer was not answered. If Jesus cannot change the will of God to intervene on his behalf then I guess the rest of us depraved sinners are fucked. As far as I see it, God gave us hospitals and doctors and medicine.

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While out to sea, a large boat became shipwrecked and there was only a single survivor. This man prayed and asked God to save his life. Soon thereafter, another boat came by and offered the man some help.

"No thanks," he said. "I'm waiting for God to save me."

The men on the boat shrugged their shoulders and continued. As the man became more deeply concerned, another boat came by. Again, the people aboard offered this man some help, and again he politely decline. "I'm waiting for God to save me," he said again.

After some time, the man began to lose his faith, and soon after that he died. Upon reaching Heaven, he had a chance to speak with God briefly.

"Why did you let me die? Why didn't you answer my prayers?"

"Dummy, I sent you two boats!"

http://www.spiritual-short-stories.c...wning+Man.html
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