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Old 06-09-2010, 02:06 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by deep View Post
I was born in North America, just like you. I have stayed in my country and maintain my citizenship. In the U S most of the citizens were born here.
If Israel had the same percentage of immigration as the U S, there would be a lot less trouble in the Mid East.
Sure, but 200-250 years ago how many of the citizens in your country were born there? I'm sure the Native Americans weren’t too happy about your ancestors coming either. Many of them died because of it. That is, unless you're Native American yourself.

BTW, I was born here. Most of the people I know are around the ages of 25-35 and the vast majority of them were born here as well.
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Old 06-09-2010, 02:12 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by AchtungBono View Post
So actually, we're heading for #3 as soon as the Palestinians take their heads out of their behinds and take peace seriously.
Replace the word "Palestinians" with the words "both sides" and we'll be in agreement.

I just don't understand. It's LAND. Why the hell is it so freakin' hard to share a piece of LAND?!?! I know there's religious connotations there, but maybe both sides need to just let that part of it go now, eh?

Angela
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Old 06-09-2010, 02:29 PM   #48
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I just don't understand. It's LAND. Why the hell is it so freakin' hard to share a piece of LAND?!?! I know there's religious connotations there, but maybe both sides need to just let that part of it go now, eh?
Actually, I think that ethnicity and national origin figure far more into the equation of "who belongs" in pretty much any country outside the U.S. and Canada, who have stronger traditions of mass immigration and eventual assimilation. It's a problem, but it's not restricted to just Israel and Palestine.
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Old 06-09-2010, 02:36 PM   #49
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You're definitely right, those issues play a major role, too. I was just thinking about the whole "holy land" thing.

Whatever the main reason is, it's still insanely stupid to be fighting over it to this level.

Angela
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Old 06-09-2010, 04:15 PM   #50
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This is already being discussed in the Israel thread, so I'm not sure why you feel it necessary to post a new thread. And it's kind of surprising that someone that claims to be anti-war would post such a thread, but I guess the libertarian movement is a broad church.

She absolutely should not have said what she said - and maybe it does point to a latent anti-semitism on her part, I really don't know - but that lady has guts. She called the neo-con war machine on their bullshit and said what the majority of her so-called journalistic peers were afraid to say back in the 2003-2005 period, particularly. And, more recently, with Obama, she didn't do the usual liberal journalist thing of "go easy on the new guy, he's one of us", she continued to ask the tough questions. How quickly we forget.

Incidentally, the first line in the article is real nice.
This.

Highlight: Of Lebanese descent. Who the hell cares, that is relevant?

@AchtungBono, stop with the Israel superiority propaganda crap. You built the desert, b.s.

It looks great, Tel Aviv is a great city, congratulations.

Plenty of other civilizations built something out of nothing.

Beirut in the 1970s before the Civil War in Lebanon was not known as the Paris of the East for nothing.

And Lebanon was a moderate, tolerant, westernized society who accepted all religions and peoples equally, something Israel's current government is having a very difficult time doing.

You wont agree with me, but just like Antitram said, you and the Israel far right are the only people in the world who would make that argument. Anyone reasonable is against you, sorry to burst your bubble.

FinanceGUY is one of the smartest people here.

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Oh, definitely. No argument there. You mentioned Palin-every time I hear her get on her high horse about people saying offensive things, I just think about both the speech she gave to that Tea Party convention in Nashville last November, where she came on right after Mr. "Let's have literacy tests for immigrants before they vote" Tom Tancredo, so it's not like she wasn't around to hear that charming speech, and I think about the 2008 campaign, when people yelled out things like "TERRORIST!" and my personal favorite, "KILL HIM!" in relation to Obama. Not to mention the numerous offensive signs at Tea Party rallies comparing Obama to Hitler, or calling him the "n" word, or whatever else. Surely she's seen all that video and heard all those comments by now. And yet...never do I hear her rail against them the way she does Seth MacFarlane or David Letterman or Helen Thomas. Never. Very interesting, that...

If we expect all Muslims to stand up and denounce the words and actions of their extremists, if we expect all liberals to stand up and denounce the words and actions of the far left, it's high time the other side start doing the same, then. Or, here's a better idea, we could just all save ourselves the time and trouble and just go with the logical conclusion that just because a select few people in a group here and there say and do all sorts of things that are offensive at best, dangerous at worst, that doesn't mean EVERY SINGLE PERSON who is of that race or religion or ethnicity or political background or gender or whatever agrees with what they say or do. It's a pretty simple idea, really.

Angela
Moonlit Angel is also one of the smartest people here!

As for Helen Thomas, poor choice of words, but the overall point, as Deep, Earnie Shavers and others pointed out, was rather reasonable and noncontroversial.
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Old 06-09-2010, 04:18 PM   #51
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You think you own whatever land you land on... the earth is just a dead thing you can claim. :cry:
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Old 06-10-2010, 09:51 AM   #52
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Associated Press

4:28 PM CDT, June 9, 2010

The Detroit alma mater of veteran White House correspondent Helen Thomas says it isn't changing the name of the award named after her, despite inflammatory remarks she made about Israel.

Wayne State University said Wednesday it will keep the Helen Thomas Spirit of Diversity award. It was established a decade ago to honor journalists.

In remarks captured on video recently, Thomas said Israel should "get the hell out of Palestine." She has since apologized.

The university said in a statement it "strongly condemns" her "wholly inappropriate comments" but they shouldn't diminish her "many years of exemplary service" and pioneering role for women in journalism.
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Old 06-10-2010, 12:24 PM   #53
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You don't get any of the West Bank. It isn't yours. It's stolen land, stolen illegally, right under the noses of the people whose homes were bulldozed over.

Moreover, your stolen parcels of the West Bank comprise roughly some of the BEST land, which you are willing to "negotiate" over, ie. give the Palestinians shit land in the Negev on which they can squat on and grow nothing.

The Israeli settlements are 100% wrong and one of the largest, if not the largest, obstacles to peace.
Doesn't this sound a whole lot like the U.S. takeover of Native American lands here in America in our own history?

Even Achtung Bono's arguments about making the desert bloom are representative of white American arguments back in the 1800s. The Native Americans were "wasting" the land any way--better to let white folks have it who could make "proper use of it."

The Native Americans were also viewed a savage group of people who only wanted war and refused to accept peace when it was offered to them.

On the bright side for hardline Israel, if they prevail, in another 100 or 200 years all of this will be forgotten.

Or at least it won't matter any more. It'll just be history book stuff.
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Old 06-10-2010, 01:58 PM   #54
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I can see where you get that argument, maycocksean, yeah. It's a funny cycle-people take land and claim it as their own, and then get mad and surprised when the people who lived there originally suggest maybe having it back or at least sharing it. Well, what did you expect?

I dunno. This whole thing really does sound like the adults (and I use that term loosely) version of what 5 year olds do all the time. Seriously, message to everyone out there in the world, just grow up already. Remember how we always teach children that sharing is good? Maybe we adults could use a reminder of that lesson, too.

U2387, thanks for the compliment .

Angela
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Old 06-10-2010, 03:55 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post
Doesn't this sound a whole lot like the U.S. takeover of Native American lands here in America in our own history?

Even Achtung Bono's arguments about making the desert bloom are representative of white American arguments back in the 1800s. The Native Americans were "wasting" the land any way--better to let white folks have it who could make "proper use of it."

The Native Americans were also viewed a savage group of people who only wanted war and refused to accept peace when it was offered to them.

On the bright side for hardline Israel, if they prevail, in another 100 or 200 years all of this will be forgotten.

Or at least it won't matter any more. It'll just be history book stuff.
Those arguments, about America in the 1700 and 1800s are ridiculous.
When anyone brings them up, they have surrendered the argument.

It is a confession that their cause is illegitimate.

Why????

Because in the 1700, and 1800s, there was all kinds of wrong actions and behavior. Why not argue for child labor laws, and slave labor to build the infrastructure, railroads, etc. That is/ was the standard in the 1800s.

Now if you want to come out of the dark and into the light of the 1900s and 2000s.

What is the standard? WW1, Germany and the AXIS powers, captured territory and displaced people. The world united against, this taking of territory and pushed them back.

WW2, again aggressors were pushed back, and the victors did not annex their conquered territories. Unless you want to site the Soviets and Eastern Europe? Does Israel want to say they follow the Communist Soviets, that were eventually fought back in the Cold War and had their empire crumble?

And we have Iraq and Saddam expansion into and taking of Kuwait. Should that have been allowed to stand? The Imperialists Japanese expansion into and taking Asia and the Pacific?

And when I did visit Japan, Japanese people did tell me that their expansion during the 1930s and 1040s was no different than the U S expansion into the West. That is was their manifest destiny.

All through the 1900s it has been going the other way. Expansionism, wrong, Manifest destiny, wrong. Occupation, wrong.

Israel's arguments about the 1800s are morally bankrupt.


And as for the hope that with time 200- 300 years from now this will be forgotten and Israel will be looked at the same way as the U S and their taking of natives' lands.

That was the same thing the White South Africans thought they could pull off in South Africa. And it worked through the 1960s through most of the 1980s. They got that far with the US, Reagan, Cheney and the like labeling the ANC, terrorist, communists, and killers of innocent people. Cheney and Reagan would have been fine with Mandela being executed.

Finally the West stopped supporting them and they had to deal with Mandela the terrorist and reach an accommodation.
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Old 06-10-2010, 10:15 PM   #56
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"I'm reasonably sure Helen Thomas did not sleep her way to the top."
-- Dennis Miller when asked to pay Helen Thomas a compliment.
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Old 06-10-2010, 10:48 PM   #57
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Are you going to do anything in this thread besides troll, Indy?
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Old 06-11-2010, 11:15 AM   #58
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I'm reasonably sure that Dennis Miller didn't sleep his way to the top either

Easy db way to go, to insult her appearance
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Old 06-12-2010, 02:52 PM   #59
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The Huffington Post June 12, 2010

Beleaguered and now-retired White House columnist Helen Thomas finally has a defender for her remarks that the Jews in Israel should "get the hell out of Palestine" and return to Germany and Poland. But it's not exactly the type of respected institutional backer one would prefer.

On Wednesday, a Hezbollah spokesperson released a statement calling Thomas's remarks -- which resulted in her release from her speaking agency and resignation from the long-time post she held in the White House briefing room -- "courageous."

"Respected American journalist Helen Thomas's answer shows ... a courageous, bold, honest and free opinion which expresses what people across the globe believe: that Israel is a racist state of murderers and thugs," Hezbollah MP Hussein Moussawi said in a statement.
Helen Thomas Gets A Defender... Hezbollah

As the late, great Tony Snow once quipped to Helen Thomas during a White House press conference, "Well, thank you for the Hezbollah view."
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Old 06-12-2010, 03:19 PM   #60
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