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Old 06-09-2010, 02:49 AM   #31
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You know, I'm quite sure if the situation were reversed the very people who are berating Helen Thomas would be trying to explain and justify the journalist's words and/or pleading for people to try and be respectful.
Well, you had Mike Huckabee (who, as a former governor and presidential hopeful, is/was in a much more important position than Helen Thomas when it comes to what he says) essentially saying he'd like to see the Arabs ethnically cleansed from the area, and there was a deafening silence from conservatives. Not one peep in opposition. So there's certainly some hypocrisy and opportunism (Palin blaming the librul media for going soft on Thomas, which they most certainly haven't) leaping in from the right on this subject.
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Old 06-09-2010, 04:15 AM   #32
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If all the recent immigrants to the West Bank in the settlements would go the hell back to their country of origin, we might be able to move ahead with a viable two state solution.

Instead we have a Israeli right wing coalition government with Foreign Minister and Deputy Prime Minister Avigdor Lieberman, a Shas party member recruiting and encouraging immigrants from Europe (Germany, Poland) and America to live in settlements on Palestinian land in the West Bank.
If that were the case, then why not empty EVERY country of all its citizens who weren't born there - starting of course with the United States which itself is a nation of immigrants.

Israel is a Jewish nation open to all Jews wherever they come from. It's unreasonable to say that you can't live here because you're not born here and that you should go back to where you came from.

As for the Palestinian land - we have already given a major part of the West Bank back to Palestinian control and the rest has to be negotiated via direct talks which will lead to a comprehensive peace with two states living side by side in secure borders.
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Old 06-09-2010, 04:38 AM   #33
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If that were the case, then why not empty EVERY country of all its citizens who weren't born there - starting of course with the United States which itself is a nation of immigrants.
I was born in North America, just like you. I have stayed in my country and maintain my citizenship. In the U S most of the citizens were born here.
If Israel had the same percentage of immigration as the U S, there would be a lot less trouble in the Mid East.


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Israel is a Jewish nation open to all Jews wherever they come from. It's unreasonable to say that you can't live here because you're not born here and that you should go back to where you came from.
.
Then it is unreasonable to not allow Palestinians from any other country to immigrate to the West Bank or Gaza, not that they would want to go to Gaza.

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As for the Palestinian land - we have already given a major part of the West Bank back to Palestinian control and the rest has to be negotiated via direct talks which will lead to a comprehensive peace with two states living side by side in secure borders.
As for the Palestinian land, the West Bank, Israeli settlers are stealing that in violation of international law, with the full support of the Israeli government. This is where Israel has no leg to stand on in the company of honorable nations.
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Old 06-09-2010, 05:56 AM   #34
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Wow. That is what all the fuss is about? I had only read the quote in isolation, and made the same assumption it appears everyone else has made, and the assumption everyone is obviously supposed to make.

Her comments in the larger context are far, far more reasonable. They reflect more of a stupidity for someone of her experience - not to see in advance how easily they could have been twisted, particularly given her choice of Germany and Poland - moreso than anything terribly evil or anti-semetic. She's clearly not saying that Israel should not exist, and that all Jews in Israel should move back to Germany and Poland. She's clearly talking about immigration into settlements in the West Bank into areas that most of the world deems to rightfully belong to others, a settlement plan everyone can see straight through.

Wow -what an overreaction.
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Old 06-09-2010, 11:20 AM   #35
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As for the Palestinian land - we have already given a major part of the West Bank back to Palestinian control and the rest has to be negotiated via direct talks which will lead to a comprehensive peace with two states living side by side in secure borders.
You don't get any of the West Bank. It isn't yours. It's stolen land, stolen illegally, right under the noses of the people whose homes were bulldozed over.

Moreover, your stolen parcels of the West Bank comprise roughly some of the BEST land, which you are willing to "negotiate" over, ie. give the Palestinians shit land in the Negev on which they can squat on and grow nothing.

The Israeli settlements are 100% wrong and one of the largest, if not the largest, obstacles to peace.
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Old 06-09-2010, 11:37 AM   #36
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Israel's expansion was carried out in post-colonial times --when international law recognized colonization as wrong.
This.

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Originally Posted by anitram View Post
The Israeli settlements are 100% wrong and one of the largest, if not the largest, obstacles to peace.
This.

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but the history of progress appears to be paved with bloodshed, because we can't seem to resolve our issues any way else.
And this.

I'm surprised Helen Thomas hasn't yet shown up on the Oprah confessional couch.
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Old 06-09-2010, 11:55 AM   #37
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Oprah's on summer vacation
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Old 06-09-2010, 12:31 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by anitram View Post
You don't get any of the West Bank. It isn't yours. It's stolen land, stolen illegally, right under the noses of the people whose homes were bulldozed over.

Moreover, your stolen parcels of the West Bank comprise roughly some of the BEST land, which you are willing to "negotiate" over, ie. give the Palestinians shit land in the Negev on which they can squat on and grow nothing.

The Israeli settlements are 100% wrong and one of the largest, if not the largest, obstacles to peace.
I'm sorry Anitram - but this is a point that we will always disagree on.

btw - here is an example of some "shit land in the Negev" where they can grow nothing - just like Israel did.....

I give you - the beautiful resort city of Eilat:

YouTube - Eilat - Israel made the desert bloom

Here's some more examples of making something out of nothing:

The first Kiosk in Tel-Aviv - circa 1900's



The same area today - with the very same Kiosk....



THIS is what Tel-Aviv looked like in 1909 on the day that the lots were drawn for the first houses:



And THIS is what it looks like today:



so you see, it's not the land - it's what you DO with it that counts.
The Palestinians can develop the lands they get into wonderful and thriving cities and towns for them to live in when they achieve statehood.
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Old 06-09-2010, 12:41 PM   #39
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I'm sorry Anitram - but this is a point that we will always disagree on.
Nobody in the entire world, not even the American government, agrees with you on settlements. You're wrong. This isn't even open to discussion. Your people are stealing the land of Palestinians. Every day. For decades. It's immoral, it's shameful and it's unsustainable.

And the "we made the desert bloom" is commonly tossed around without any regard to environmental issues OR to the fact that Israel controls the water, which is yet another thing that you're not willing to properly "negotiate" away.

Israel has essentially three options:

1. Push for a two-state solution in the immediate future while demographics still permit it. I see the likelihood of this outcome evaporating, especially if you keep electing Likud and the like (who, by the way, operate on an explicitly and openly racist charter). This would involve dismantling a significant amount of settlements, and I don't see present-day Israelis being willing to evict some 150,000 settlers (this is to say nothing of the 300,000+ who would get to stay for land swaps).

2. Do nothing and end up being a genuine apartheid state in 50 years, with genuine bantustans, where the majority of the population is suppressed by the minority.

3. One-state solution which will result in a majority Muslim populace within 50 years and as such seems like something that Israel would never agree on.

Right now, it looks like you're going with #2.
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Old 06-09-2010, 12:50 PM   #40
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Well, you had Mike Huckabee (who, as a former governor and presidential hopeful, is/was in a much more important position than Helen Thomas when it comes to what he says) essentially saying he'd like to see the Arabs ethnically cleansed from the area, and there was a deafening silence from conservatives. Not one peep in opposition. So there's certainly some hypocrisy and opportunism (Palin blaming the librul media for going soft on Thomas, which they most certainly haven't) leaping in from the right on this subject.
Oh, definitely. No argument there. You mentioned Palin-every time I hear her get on her high horse about people saying offensive things, I just think about both the speech she gave to that Tea Party convention in Nashville last November, where she came on right after Mr. "Let's have literacy tests for immigrants before they vote" Tom Tancredo, so it's not like she wasn't around to hear that charming speech, and I think about the 2008 campaign, when people yelled out things like "TERRORIST!" and my personal favorite, "KILL HIM!" in relation to Obama. Not to mention the numerous offensive signs at Tea Party rallies comparing Obama to Hitler, or calling him the "n" word, or whatever else. Surely she's seen all that video and heard all those comments by now. And yet...never do I hear her rail against them the way she does Seth MacFarlane or David Letterman or Helen Thomas. Never. Very interesting, that...

If we expect all Muslims to stand up and denounce the words and actions of their extremists, if we expect all liberals to stand up and denounce the words and actions of the far left, it's high time the other side start doing the same, then. Or, here's a better idea, we could just all save ourselves the time and trouble and just go with the logical conclusion that just because a select few people in a group here and there say and do all sorts of things that are offensive at best, dangerous at worst, that doesn't mean EVERY SINGLE PERSON who is of that race or religion or ethnicity or political background or gender or whatever agrees with what they say or do. It's a pretty simple idea, really.

Angela
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Old 06-09-2010, 01:12 PM   #41
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Nobody in the entire world, not even the American government, agrees with you on settlements. You're wrong. This isn't even open to discussion. Your people are stealing the land of Palestinians. Every day. For decades. It's immoral, it's shameful and it's unsustainable.

And the "we made the desert bloom" is commonly tossed around without any regard to environmental issues OR to the fact that Israel controls the water, which is yet another thing that you're not willing to properly "negotiate" away.

Israel has essentially three options:

1. Push for a two-state solution in the immediate future while demographics still permit it. I see the likelihood of this outcome evaporating, especially if you keep electing Likud and the like (who, by the way, operate on an explicitly and openly racist charter). This would involve dismantling a significant amount of settlements, and I don't see present-day Israelis being willing to evict some 150,000 settlers (this is to say nothing of the 300,000+ who would get to stay for land swaps).

2. Do nothing and end up being a genuine apartheid state in 50 years, with genuine bantustans, where the majority of the population is suppressed by the minority.

3. One-state solution which will result in a majority Muslim populace within 50 years and as such seems like something that Israel would never agree on.

Right now, it looks like you're going with #2.
I'm not going to argue the issue of settlements with you because we're never going to agree....

As for your solutions:

1. In August of 2005, Israel unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza strip, uprooting hundreds of thousands of people amid terrible violence and division among our people. While in itself it was a good idea to leave Gaza, the end result was that Hamas moved their missiles and rocket launchers into the areas evacuated by Israel - which resulted in the massive shelling of Sderot and the surrounding areas.
Israel will NOT be making the same mistake again. We have said many times that we are willing to make painful territorial compromises, but ONLY within the framework of a negotiated peace that wouldn't leave our citizens again exposed to rocket fire and attacks.
Therefore, if peace is negotiated, it will be necessary to uproot the settlers from some parts of the West Bank, but it will not be unilaterall like it was in Gaza. The days of our citizens being sitting ducks is over.

2. Do you consider all the processes and talks that have been going on since 1948 "doing nothing"? How many times have we approached the Arab nations with genuine plans for peace talks, including territorial compromises, only to be met by a slap in the face time and time again?
Doing nothing is NOT an option.

3. Both the right and left in Israel agree that the days of a "greater Israel" are a thing of the past and that, eventually, the Palestinian state will be established alongside us. So actually, we're heading for #3 as soon as the Palestinians take their heads out of their behinds and take peace seriously.
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Old 06-09-2010, 01:18 PM   #42
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3. Both the right and left in Israel agree that the days of a "greater Israel" are a thing of the past and that, eventually, the Palestinian state will be established alongside us. So actually, we're heading for #3 as soon as the Palestinians take their heads out of their behinds and take peace seriously.
You do realize that most of the world doesn't believe that Israel is taking peace seriously either.

And I wasn't aware that you were heading for a one-state solution.
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Old 06-09-2010, 01:30 PM   #43
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You do realize that most of the world doesn't believe that Israel is taking peace seriously either.

And I wasn't aware that you were heading for a one-state solution.
I'm sorry....I meant #1......It's 20:30 and I'm tired....lol.
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Old 06-09-2010, 01:47 PM   #44
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I'm surprised Helen Thomas hasn't yet shown up on the Oprah confessional couch.
I'm pretty sure Helen Thomas doesn't feel the need to confess to anything. She's a bold woman. I'm sure she's no more impressed by Oprah than most reasonable people are.
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Old 06-09-2010, 01:55 PM   #45
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I just wanted to post this. Its Queen Rania of Jordan's op-ed in the Independent over the weekend.

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What is most frustrating is Israel's defence of its actions. By attacking criticism as part of an anti-Israel, anti-Semitic propaganda war, Israel, yet again, fails to understand that the problem is policy, not PR. Now and always, hardline policy and those who embrace it are vessels for darker forces that are at once self-cannibalising and combustible. No good can come of them. They are unsustainable because their sense of righteousness denies human worth. Apart from other hardliners on all sides who now have been gifted the fuel to invigorate their fanaticism and circulate it far and wide, everyone else loses out. The people of Gaza lose out: 80 per cent of them live below the poverty line. The children of Gaza lose out: one third of their schools, destroyed during the attack on Gaza last year, still haven't been rebuilt. The newborns of Gaza lose out: 95% of Gaza's nitrate-full water fails the World Health Organization's standards, leaving thousands of babies at risk of poisoning.

Queen Rania of Jordan: Hardliners are now the face of Israel - Commentators, Opinion - The Independent
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