Farewell to Helen Thomas

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You know, I'm quite sure if the situation were reversed the very people who are berating Helen Thomas would be trying to explain and justify the journalist's words and/or pleading for people to try and be respectful.

Well, you had Mike Huckabee (who, as a former governor and presidential hopeful, is/was in a much more important position than Helen Thomas when it comes to what he says) essentially saying he'd like to see the Arabs ethnically cleansed from the area, and there was a deafening silence from conservatives. Not one peep in opposition. So there's certainly some hypocrisy and opportunism (Palin blaming the librul media for going soft on Thomas, which they most certainly haven't) leaping in from the right on this subject.
 
If all the recent immigrants to the West Bank in the settlements would go the hell back to their country of origin, we might be able to move ahead with a viable two state solution.

Instead we have a Israeli right wing coalition government with Foreign Minister and Deputy Prime Minister Avigdor Lieberman, a Shas party member recruiting and encouraging immigrants from Europe (Germany, Poland) and America to live in settlements on Palestinian land in the West Bank.

If that were the case, then why not empty EVERY country of all its citizens who weren't born there - starting of course with the United States which itself is a nation of immigrants.

Israel is a Jewish nation open to all Jews wherever they come from. It's unreasonable to say that you can't live here because you're not born here and that you should go back to where you came from.

As for the Palestinian land - we have already given a major part of the West Bank back to Palestinian control and the rest has to be negotiated via direct talks which will lead to a comprehensive peace with two states living side by side in secure borders.
 
If that were the case, then why not empty EVERY country of all its citizens who weren't born there - starting of course with the United States which itself is a nation of immigrants.

I was born in North America, just like you. I have stayed in my country and maintain my citizenship. In the U S most of the citizens were born here.
If Israel had the same percentage of immigration as the U S, there would be a lot less trouble in the Mid East.


Israel is a Jewish nation open to all Jews wherever they come from. It's unreasonable to say that you can't live here because you're not born here and that you should go back to where you came from.
.

Then it is unreasonable to not allow Palestinians from any other country to immigrate to the West Bank or Gaza, not that they would want to go to Gaza.

As for the Palestinian land - we have already given a major part of the West Bank back to Palestinian control and the rest has to be negotiated via direct talks which will lead to a comprehensive peace with two states living side by side in secure borders.

As for the Palestinian land, the West Bank, Israeli settlers are stealing that in violation of international law, with the full support of the Israeli government. This is where Israel has no leg to stand on in the company of honorable nations.
 
Wow. That is what all the fuss is about? I had only read the quote in isolation, and made the same assumption it appears everyone else has made, and the assumption everyone is obviously supposed to make.

Her comments in the larger context are far, far more reasonable. They reflect more of a stupidity for someone of her experience - not to see in advance how easily they could have been twisted, particularly given her choice of Germany and Poland - moreso than anything terribly evil or anti-semetic. She's clearly not saying that Israel should not exist, and that all Jews in Israel should move back to Germany and Poland. She's clearly talking about immigration into settlements in the West Bank into areas that most of the world deems to rightfully belong to others, a settlement plan everyone can see straight through.

Wow -what an overreaction.
 
As for the Palestinian land - we have already given a major part of the West Bank back to Palestinian control and the rest has to be negotiated via direct talks which will lead to a comprehensive peace with two states living side by side in secure borders.

You don't get any of the West Bank. It isn't yours. It's stolen land, stolen illegally, right under the noses of the people whose homes were bulldozed over.

Moreover, your stolen parcels of the West Bank comprise roughly some of the BEST land, which you are willing to "negotiate" over, ie. give the Palestinians shit land in the Negev on which they can squat on and grow nothing.

The Israeli settlements are 100% wrong and one of the largest, if not the largest, obstacles to peace.
 
Israel's expansion was carried out in post-colonial times --when international law recognized colonization as wrong.

This.

The Israeli settlements are 100% wrong and one of the largest, if not the largest, obstacles to peace.

This.

but the history of progress appears to be paved with bloodshed, because we can't seem to resolve our issues any way else.

And this.

I'm surprised Helen Thomas hasn't yet shown up on the Oprah confessional couch.
 
You don't get any of the West Bank. It isn't yours. It's stolen land, stolen illegally, right under the noses of the people whose homes were bulldozed over.

Moreover, your stolen parcels of the West Bank comprise roughly some of the BEST land, which you are willing to "negotiate" over, ie. give the Palestinians shit land in the Negev on which they can squat on and grow nothing.

The Israeli settlements are 100% wrong and one of the largest, if not the largest, obstacles to peace.

I'm sorry Anitram - but this is a point that we will always disagree on.

btw - here is an example of some "shit land in the Negev" where they can grow nothing - just like Israel did.....

I give you - the beautiful resort city of Eilat:

YouTube - Eilat - Israel made the desert bloom

Here's some more examples of making something out of nothing:

The first Kiosk in Tel-Aviv - circa 1900's

ill9_large.jpg


The same area today - with the very same Kiosk....

1.1244692800.relaxing-rothschild-blvdx.jpg


THIS is what Tel-Aviv looked like in 1909 on the day that the lots were drawn for the first houses:

telaviv-founding.jpg


And THIS is what it looks like today:

tel_aviv.jpg


so you see, it's not the land - it's what you DO with it that counts.
The Palestinians can develop the lands they get into wonderful and thriving cities and towns for them to live in when they achieve statehood.
 
I'm sorry Anitram - but this is a point that we will always disagree on.

Nobody in the entire world, not even the American government, agrees with you on settlements. You're wrong. This isn't even open to discussion. Your people are stealing the land of Palestinians. Every day. For decades. It's immoral, it's shameful and it's unsustainable.

And the "we made the desert bloom" is commonly tossed around without any regard to environmental issues OR to the fact that Israel controls the water, which is yet another thing that you're not willing to properly "negotiate" away.

Israel has essentially three options:

1. Push for a two-state solution in the immediate future while demographics still permit it. I see the likelihood of this outcome evaporating, especially if you keep electing Likud and the like (who, by the way, operate on an explicitly and openly racist charter). This would involve dismantling a significant amount of settlements, and I don't see present-day Israelis being willing to evict some 150,000 settlers (this is to say nothing of the 300,000+ who would get to stay for land swaps).

2. Do nothing and end up being a genuine apartheid state in 50 years, with genuine bantustans, where the majority of the population is suppressed by the minority.

3. One-state solution which will result in a majority Muslim populace within 50 years and as such seems like something that Israel would never agree on.

Right now, it looks like you're going with #2.
 
Well, you had Mike Huckabee (who, as a former governor and presidential hopeful, is/was in a much more important position than Helen Thomas when it comes to what he says) essentially saying he'd like to see the Arabs ethnically cleansed from the area, and there was a deafening silence from conservatives. Not one peep in opposition. So there's certainly some hypocrisy and opportunism (Palin blaming the librul media for going soft on Thomas, which they most certainly haven't) leaping in from the right on this subject.

Oh, definitely. No argument there. You mentioned Palin-every time I hear her get on her high horse about people saying offensive things, I just think about both the speech she gave to that Tea Party convention in Nashville last November, where she came on right after Mr. "Let's have literacy tests for immigrants before they vote" Tom Tancredo, so it's not like she wasn't around to hear that charming speech, and I think about the 2008 campaign, when people yelled out things like "TERRORIST!" and my personal favorite, "KILL HIM!" in relation to Obama. Not to mention the numerous offensive signs at Tea Party rallies comparing Obama to Hitler, or calling him the "n" word, or whatever else. Surely she's seen all that video and heard all those comments by now. And yet...never do I hear her rail against them the way she does Seth MacFarlane or David Letterman or Helen Thomas. Never. Very interesting, that...

If we expect all Muslims to stand up and denounce the words and actions of their extremists, if we expect all liberals to stand up and denounce the words and actions of the far left, it's high time the other side start doing the same, then. Or, here's a better idea, we could just all save ourselves the time and trouble and just go with the logical conclusion that just because a select few people in a group here and there say and do all sorts of things that are offensive at best, dangerous at worst, that doesn't mean EVERY SINGLE PERSON who is of that race or religion or ethnicity or political background or gender or whatever agrees with what they say or do. It's a pretty simple idea, really.

Angela
 
Nobody in the entire world, not even the American government, agrees with you on settlements. You're wrong. This isn't even open to discussion. Your people are stealing the land of Palestinians. Every day. For decades. It's immoral, it's shameful and it's unsustainable.

And the "we made the desert bloom" is commonly tossed around without any regard to environmental issues OR to the fact that Israel controls the water, which is yet another thing that you're not willing to properly "negotiate" away.

Israel has essentially three options:

1. Push for a two-state solution in the immediate future while demographics still permit it. I see the likelihood of this outcome evaporating, especially if you keep electing Likud and the like (who, by the way, operate on an explicitly and openly racist charter). This would involve dismantling a significant amount of settlements, and I don't see present-day Israelis being willing to evict some 150,000 settlers (this is to say nothing of the 300,000+ who would get to stay for land swaps).

2. Do nothing and end up being a genuine apartheid state in 50 years, with genuine bantustans, where the majority of the population is suppressed by the minority.

3. One-state solution which will result in a majority Muslim populace within 50 years and as such seems like something that Israel would never agree on.

Right now, it looks like you're going with #2.

I'm not going to argue the issue of settlements with you because we're never going to agree....

As for your solutions:

1. In August of 2005, Israel unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza strip, uprooting hundreds of thousands of people amid terrible violence and division among our people. While in itself it was a good idea to leave Gaza, the end result was that Hamas moved their missiles and rocket launchers into the areas evacuated by Israel - which resulted in the massive shelling of Sderot and the surrounding areas.
Israel will NOT be making the same mistake again. We have said many times that we are willing to make painful territorial compromises, but ONLY within the framework of a negotiated peace that wouldn't leave our citizens again exposed to rocket fire and attacks.
Therefore, if peace is negotiated, it will be necessary to uproot the settlers from some parts of the West Bank, but it will not be unilaterall like it was in Gaza. The days of our citizens being sitting ducks is over.

2. Do you consider all the processes and talks that have been going on since 1948 "doing nothing"? How many times have we approached the Arab nations with genuine plans for peace talks, including territorial compromises, only to be met by a slap in the face time and time again?
Doing nothing is NOT an option.

3. Both the right and left in Israel agree that the days of a "greater Israel" are a thing of the past and that, eventually, the Palestinian state will be established alongside us. So actually, we're heading for #3 as soon as the Palestinians take their heads out of their behinds and take peace seriously.
 
3. Both the right and left in Israel agree that the days of a "greater Israel" are a thing of the past and that, eventually, the Palestinian state will be established alongside us. So actually, we're heading for #3 as soon as the Palestinians take their heads out of their behinds and take peace seriously.

You do realize that most of the world doesn't believe that Israel is taking peace seriously either.

And I wasn't aware that you were heading for a one-state solution.
 
I just wanted to post this. Its Queen Rania of Jordan's op-ed in the Independent over the weekend.

What is most frustrating is Israel's defence of its actions. By attacking criticism as part of an anti-Israel, anti-Semitic propaganda war, Israel, yet again, fails to understand that the problem is policy, not PR. Now and always, hardline policy and those who embrace it are vessels for darker forces that are at once self-cannibalising and combustible. No good can come of them. They are unsustainable because their sense of righteousness denies human worth. Apart from other hardliners on all sides who now have been gifted the fuel to invigorate their fanaticism and circulate it far and wide, everyone else loses out. The people of Gaza lose out: 80 per cent of them live below the poverty line. The children of Gaza lose out: one third of their schools, destroyed during the attack on Gaza last year, still haven't been rebuilt. The newborns of Gaza lose out: 95% of Gaza's nitrate-full water fails the World Health Organization's standards, leaving thousands of babies at risk of poisoning.


Queen Rania of Jordan: Hardliners are now the face of Israel - Commentators, Opinion - The Independent
 
I was born in North America, just like you. I have stayed in my country and maintain my citizenship. In the U S most of the citizens were born here.
If Israel had the same percentage of immigration as the U S, there would be a lot less trouble in the Mid East.

Sure, but 200-250 years ago how many of the citizens in your country were born there? I'm sure the Native Americans weren’t too happy about your ancestors coming either. Many of them died because of it. That is, unless you're Native American yourself.

BTW, I was born here. Most of the people I know are around the ages of 25-35 and the vast majority of them were born here as well.
 
So actually, we're heading for #3 as soon as the Palestinians take their heads out of their behinds and take peace seriously.

Replace the word "Palestinians" with the words "both sides" and we'll be in agreement.

I just don't understand. It's LAND. Why the hell is it so freakin' hard to share a piece of LAND?!?! I know there's religious connotations there, but maybe both sides need to just let that part of it go now, eh?

Angela
 
I just don't understand. It's LAND. Why the hell is it so freakin' hard to share a piece of LAND?!?! I know there's religious connotations there, but maybe both sides need to just let that part of it go now, eh?

Actually, I think that ethnicity and national origin figure far more into the equation of "who belongs" in pretty much any country outside the U.S. and Canada, who have stronger traditions of mass immigration and eventual assimilation. It's a problem, but it's not restricted to just Israel and Palestine.
 
This is already being discussed in the Israel thread, so I'm not sure why you feel it necessary to post a new thread. And it's kind of surprising that someone that claims to be anti-war would post such a thread, but I guess the libertarian movement is a broad church.

She absolutely should not have said what she said - and maybe it does point to a latent anti-semitism on her part, I really don't know - but that lady has guts. She called the neo-con war machine on their bullshit and said what the majority of her so-called journalistic peers were afraid to say back in the 2003-2005 period, particularly. And, more recently, with Obama, she didn't do the usual liberal journalist thing of "go easy on the new guy, he's one of us", she continued to ask the tough questions. How quickly we forget.

Incidentally, the first line in the article is real nice.

This.

Highlight: Of Lebanese descent. Who the hell cares, that is relevant?

@AchtungBono, stop with the Israel superiority propaganda crap. You built the desert, b.s.

It looks great, Tel Aviv is a great city, congratulations.

Plenty of other civilizations built something out of nothing.

Beirut in the 1970s before the Civil War in Lebanon was not known as the Paris of the East for nothing.

And Lebanon was a moderate, tolerant, westernized society who accepted all religions and peoples equally, something Israel's current government is having a very difficult time doing.

You wont agree with me, but just like Antitram said, you and the Israel far right are the only people in the world who would make that argument. Anyone reasonable is against you, sorry to burst your bubble.

FinanceGUY is one of the smartest people here.

Oh, definitely. No argument there. You mentioned Palin-every time I hear her get on her high horse about people saying offensive things, I just think about both the speech she gave to that Tea Party convention in Nashville last November, where she came on right after Mr. "Let's have literacy tests for immigrants before they vote" Tom Tancredo, so it's not like she wasn't around to hear that charming speech, and I think about the 2008 campaign, when people yelled out things like "TERRORIST!" and my personal favorite, "KILL HIM!" in relation to Obama. Not to mention the numerous offensive signs at Tea Party rallies comparing Obama to Hitler, or calling him the "n" word, or whatever else. Surely she's seen all that video and heard all those comments by now. And yet...never do I hear her rail against them the way she does Seth MacFarlane or David Letterman or Helen Thomas. Never. Very interesting, that...

If we expect all Muslims to stand up and denounce the words and actions of their extremists, if we expect all liberals to stand up and denounce the words and actions of the far left, it's high time the other side start doing the same, then. Or, here's a better idea, we could just all save ourselves the time and trouble and just go with the logical conclusion that just because a select few people in a group here and there say and do all sorts of things that are offensive at best, dangerous at worst, that doesn't mean EVERY SINGLE PERSON who is of that race or religion or ethnicity or political background or gender or whatever agrees with what they say or do. It's a pretty simple idea, really.

Angela

Moonlit Angel is also one of the smartest people here!

As for Helen Thomas, poor choice of words, but the overall point, as Deep, Earnie Shavers and others pointed out, was rather reasonable and noncontroversial.
 
Associated Press

4:28 PM CDT, June 9, 2010

The Detroit alma mater of veteran White House correspondent Helen Thomas says it isn't changing the name of the award named after her, despite inflammatory remarks she made about Israel.

Wayne State University said Wednesday it will keep the Helen Thomas Spirit of Diversity award. It was established a decade ago to honor journalists.

In remarks captured on video recently, Thomas said Israel should "get the hell out of Palestine." She has since apologized.

The university said in a statement it "strongly condemns" her "wholly inappropriate comments" but they shouldn't diminish her "many years of exemplary service" and pioneering role for women in journalism.
 
You don't get any of the West Bank. It isn't yours. It's stolen land, stolen illegally, right under the noses of the people whose homes were bulldozed over.

Moreover, your stolen parcels of the West Bank comprise roughly some of the BEST land, which you are willing to "negotiate" over, ie. give the Palestinians shit land in the Negev on which they can squat on and grow nothing.

The Israeli settlements are 100% wrong and one of the largest, if not the largest, obstacles to peace.

Doesn't this sound a whole lot like the U.S. takeover of Native American lands here in America in our own history?

Even Achtung Bono's arguments about making the desert bloom are representative of white American arguments back in the 1800s. The Native Americans were "wasting" the land any way--better to let white folks have it who could make "proper use of it."

The Native Americans were also viewed a savage group of people who only wanted war and refused to accept peace when it was offered to them.

On the bright side for hardline Israel, if they prevail, in another 100 or 200 years all of this will be forgotten.

Or at least it won't matter any more. It'll just be history book stuff.
 
I can see where you get that argument, maycocksean, yeah. It's a funny cycle-people take land and claim it as their own, and then get mad and surprised when the people who lived there originally suggest maybe having it back or at least sharing it. Well, what did you expect?

I dunno. This whole thing really does sound like the adults (and I use that term loosely) version of what 5 year olds do all the time. Seriously, message to everyone out there in the world, just grow up already. Remember how we always teach children that sharing is good? Maybe we adults could use a reminder of that lesson, too.

U2387, thanks for the compliment :).

Angela
 
Doesn't this sound a whole lot like the U.S. takeover of Native American lands here in America in our own history?

Even Achtung Bono's arguments about making the desert bloom are representative of white American arguments back in the 1800s. The Native Americans were "wasting" the land any way--better to let white folks have it who could make "proper use of it."

The Native Americans were also viewed a savage group of people who only wanted war and refused to accept peace when it was offered to them.

On the bright side for hardline Israel, if they prevail, in another 100 or 200 years all of this will be forgotten.

Or at least it won't matter any more. It'll just be history book stuff.

Those arguments, about America in the 1700 and 1800s are ridiculous.
When anyone brings them up, they have surrendered the argument.

It is a confession that their cause is illegitimate.

Why????

Because in the 1700, and 1800s, there was all kinds of wrong actions and behavior. Why not argue for child labor laws, and slave labor to build the infrastructure, railroads, etc. That is/ was the standard in the 1800s.

Now if you want to come out of the dark and into the light of the 1900s and 2000s.

What is the standard? WW1, Germany and the AXIS powers, captured territory and displaced people. The world united against, this taking of territory and pushed them back.

WW2, again aggressors were pushed back, and the victors did not annex their conquered territories. Unless you want to site the Soviets and Eastern Europe? Does Israel want to say they follow the Communist Soviets, that were eventually fought back in the Cold War and had their empire crumble?

And we have Iraq and Saddam expansion into and taking of Kuwait. Should that have been allowed to stand? The Imperialists Japanese expansion into and taking Asia and the Pacific?

And when I did visit Japan, Japanese people did tell me that their expansion during the 1930s and 1040s was no different than the U S expansion into the West. That is was their manifest destiny.

All through the 1900s it has been going the other way. Expansionism, wrong, Manifest destiny, wrong. Occupation, wrong.

Israel's arguments about the 1800s are morally bankrupt.


And as for the hope that with time 200- 300 years from now this will be forgotten and Israel will be looked at the same way as the U S and their taking of natives' lands.

That was the same thing the White South Africans thought they could pull off in South Africa. And it worked through the 1960s through most of the 1980s. They got that far with the US, Reagan, Cheney and the like labeling the ANC, terrorist, communists, and killers of innocent people. Cheney and Reagan would have been fine with Mandela being executed.

Finally the West stopped supporting them and they had to deal with Mandela the terrorist and reach an accommodation.
 
The Huffington Post June 12, 2010

Beleaguered and now-retired White House columnist Helen Thomas finally has a defender for her remarks that the Jews in Israel should "get the hell out of Palestine" and return to Germany and Poland. But it's not exactly the type of respected institutional backer one would prefer.

On Wednesday, a Hezbollah spokesperson released a statement calling Thomas's remarks -- which resulted in her release from her speaking agency and resignation from the long-time post she held in the White House briefing room -- "courageous."

"Respected American journalist Helen Thomas's answer shows ... a courageous, bold, honest and free opinion which expresses what people across the globe believe: that Israel is a racist state of murderers and thugs," Hezbollah MP Hussein Moussawi said in a statement.

Helen Thomas Gets A Defender... Hezbollah

As the late, great Tony Snow once quipped to Helen Thomas during a White House press conference, "Well, thank you for the Hezbollah view."
 
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