Eyeful of breast-feeding mom sparks outrage

[AliEnvy]

nbc, defining the discussion was your idea, so why don't you get it started rather than being needlessly evasive.

 

[Zoots]

It doesn't take long for an argument to break out in FYM, does it?

 

[yolland]

nb did already ask a couple questions:

Is any part of the body offensive? Are all bodily functions open for public viewing?

(Though perhaps in some cases an assertion is a better way to start...)

 

[Muggsy]

It doesn't take long for an argument to break out in FYM, does it?

I gave my opinion about what NBC said... maybe it isn't controvertial enough

 

[nbcrusader]

My question was "is there going to be a discussion?" Far from being "evasive", I am frustrated by the persistent need for a meaningless post that does not further discussion.

No one is suggesting that breast feeding is bad, or should not take place.

My question would be "how do you balance one persons' personal behavior with the impact of that behavior on those around them?"

How do you measure the impact? Irvine suggested that not all bodily functions are appropriate for public view. On what principle do you distinguish one function from another?

 

[Muggsy]

My question was "is there going to be a discussion?" Far from being "evasive", I am frustrated by the persistent need for a meaningless post that does not further discussion.

I don't think this thread is meaningless, just because we haven't present any discussion yet, besides if there's need of arguments I think they will rise naturally and not because someone says that this thread is useless because nobody's arguing.

I already gave my opinion about your questions,from the things I know. If you still think it is still useles, well, now is time for you to present yours

 

[Irvine511]

How do you measure the impact? Irvine suggested that not all bodily functions are appropriate for public view. On what principle do you distinguish one function from another?

poop and pee are not acceptable.

breast feeding is.

 

[Greenlight]

poop and pee are not acceptable.

breast feeding is.

Quite! Eating and drinking are acceptable in public, ergo breastfeeding should be. Other Western societies should take a leaf out of Scotland's book where it is now actually a criminal offence to ask a mum to STOP breastfeeding in public.

 

[AliEnvy]

My question was "is there going to be a discussion?" Far from being "evasive", I am frustrated by the persistent need for a meaningless post that does not further discussion.

No one is suggesting that breast feeding is bad, or should not take place.

My question would be "how do you balance one persons' personal behavior with the impact of that behavior on those around them?"

How do you measure the impact? Irvine suggested that not all bodily functions are appropriate for public view. On what principle do you distinguish one function from another?

All of what you just brought up has been peppered throughout the discussion so far...so why are you frustrated? And if this is how you would prefer to see it framed, great, thank you for clarifying.

You balance personal behaviour with impact on others with the perceived benefit of the personal behaviour as being necessary or more important than the effect it has on those exposed to it.

The distinction is nutrition versus sex versus hygiene/waste.

A babies nutrition and mother's well-being and need for social ineraction outweigh others' sexual and boldily function hangups.

 

[nbcrusader]

I don't think this thread is meaningless, just because we haven't present any discussion yet, besides if there's need of arguments I think they will rise naturally and not because someone says that this thread is useless because nobody's arguing.

I already gave my opinion about your questions,from the things I know. If you still think it is still useles, well, now is time for you to present yours

Thank you for responding to the questions. My other responses were not intended to dismiss you actual answering of my question.

Perhaps there is a correlation between an individuals objection to public breast feeding and the desire to keep sexual activity a purely private matter. In that case, perhaps the "breast as a symbol of sex" concept is influential.

Along these lines, one can ask the question "is there any room for an expectation of modesty?"

Another aspect to consider is the impact of personal functions around on others. Irvine drew a bright line with the "pee pee and poo poo" analysis. Does it end there? What about personal grooming? What about simply changing clothing? Would you change from street clothes to a swim suit in a public restaurant? Why not?

And to what degree do we regulate these behaviors based on our own desires vs. a desire not to offend someone else?

 

[WildHoneyAlways]

Here's a random story:

My friend had a baby boy last year. She didn't breast feed for long for whatever reason.

Last summer she was out to dinner with her husband and another couple. She gave her son a bottle at the table and a woman actually stopped by and said, "You know, you should be breast feeding that baby." She said she just kind of laughed and the lady walked away.

I don't think I would have been so nice.

 

[nbcrusader]

All of what you just brought up has been peppered throughout the discussion so far...so why are you frustrated? And if this is how you would prefer to see it framed, great, thank you for clarifying.

You balance personal behaviour with impact on others with the perceived benefit of the personal behaviour as being necessary or more important than the effect it has on those exposed to it.

The distinction is nutrition versus sex versus hygiene/waste.

A babies nutrition and mother's well-being and need for social ineraction outweigh others' sexual and boldily function hangups.

We probably share the same opinion on the subject.

As a general statement, I think it is interesting to discovery why we have these opinions instead of feeling "sorry" for people who don't believe the same way.

 

[AliEnvy]

Here's a random story:

My friend had a baby boy last year. She didn't breast feed for long for whatever reason.

Last summer she was out to dinner with her husband and another couple. She gave her son a bottle at the table and a woman actually stopped by and said, "You know, you should be breast feeding that baby." She said she just kind of laughed and the lady walked away.

I don't think I would have been so nice.

I ran into that a lot...except that when I bottlefed my wee ones in public, it was my breastmilk. The looks on people's faces when I told them should have been captured by a horror photographer (in a similar art project as the lollipops & toddlers - which disturbs me, btw)...priceless.

 

[AliEnvy]

Along these lines, one can ask the question "is there any room for an expectation of modesty?"

Sure there is...and 99% of nursing moms ARE modest about how they handle nursing in public.

For many who find it offensive, just being in the presence of a breastfeeding mom is as much an issue than any potential peek-a-boo. Probably because the act itself parallels sexual activity.

 

[nbcrusader]

Sure there is...and 99% of nursing moms ARE modest about how they handle nursing in public.

For many who find it offensive, just being in the presence of a breastfeeding mom is as much an issue than any potential peek-a-boo. Probably because the act itself parallels sexual activity.

Actually, I've seen comments in prior threads that suggested the concept of modesty in this situation was an improper burden for the nursing mother.

As for this thread, we've never been given adequate facts to determine if the objections are to the moms who are modest about nursing, or to those who are not.

 

[AliEnvy]

Actually, I've seen comments in prior threads that suggested the concept of modesty in this situation was an improper burden for the nursing mother.

Maybe for some nursing moms depending on wardrobe, positioning and sensitivity of the baby...all of which are manageable in a modest fashion and a good compromise IMO.

As for this thread, we've never been given adequate facts to determine if the objections are to the moms who are modest about nursing, or to those who are not.

That's likely because I think the underlying issue is about the act itself and acceptance...not so much the potential for peek-a-boobies lol...but that's what people will say is the problem.

 

[maycocksean]

I think the picture on the magazine was very tasteful and quite modest. I think anyone who has an issue with that defintely has some hangups.

Anyway, regarding nbc's question about what is "appropriate" to "display" in terms of the human body and bodily functions, I think it's entirely cultural. On the island of Yap, an Pacific Island not too far from Saipan, traditionally the women go topless. Even today--the last time I visited there was about four years ago--you'll see women, mainly older ones, topless. In this culture breats were not highly sexualized objects that needed to be hidden. However, women always kept their legs covered above the knee. The female thighs were considered highly sexualized and it was considered indecent to expose them.

The U.S. is particularly weird when it comes to sex (kinda the same with race). We're the world's biggest exporter of sexual exploitation, practically everything on TV is sexualized and yet at the same time we are very Puritanical and straightlaced compared to some other parts of the world I've visited.

At any rate, that the importance of breastfeeding for children should trump any weird cultural hangups we have. Our cultural taboos are not sacrosanct and can be overcome. The other cultural expectations of modesty (changing in public, topless bathing, whatever) can be left alone, but I think issues with breastfeeding should be challenged.

 

[sulawesigirl4]

maycocksean, you pretty much said exactly what I was going to say.

In the village in Indonesia where I grew up, any woman who had had a child at some point in her life could go topless. Didn't matter if they were currently breastfeeding or if they were 60. If, however they had never had a child, you'd never see them without a shirt on.

In Mali, it's much the same way. Women are very modest about covering their legs, but if a baby needs to eat, they'll whip out a boob in record time. I have memories of being squashed cheek to jowl in a public transport vehicle with a nursing mother and baby next to me...so close that the side of the nursing baby's head was pushed up against MY breast. Likewise, it's not uncommon in Mali to see men urinating in public. They're discreet about it but it happens all the time. Culturally acceptable, even if I might not like to see it.

I've always been a bit dumbfounded about the hypocrisy in American attitudes towards sex. Everything is sexual here...even ads for diet cola or shampoo. But show a mother using her breasts for what nature intended...to feed her infant child and people are scandalized. Puhleaze!

 

[verte76]

I think that many people gets offended by seeing the pic of the baby being feeded, because, unfortunately, women 's bodies are still seen as objects, pleasure objects, not for the women themselves, but for the men.

This is the crux of the problem.

 

[Devlin]

I'll admit, having someone whip out a boob to breastfeed around me is a bit nervous making in general. Why? Because I'm not used to it. If I got more exposure (gah! Pun!) to it, I'd likely get over it in time.
I think most of America is like that: not really exposed to the idea of breastfeeding as normal, and therefore uncomfortable with the idea. Mostly due to sexualization of the female body to the point of objectification, mind, but a bit to do with feelings of shame for finding it beautiful. After all, if I were to openly admire a beautiful woman, I would be (and have been, by churchgoers, no less!) accused of being gay. We're taught that there's something wrong with our bodies. And yet, the titillation factor is a great motivator. We're being pulled from both ends, here: it's related, as someone once said, to the Puritanical views this country has been immersed in.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Why doesn't someone from the anti camp define why it is inappropriate. And please, without comparing it to urinating in public or sex in a public place. I'm genuinely curious. What is offensive?

 

[deep]

Why doesn't someone from the anti camp define why it is inappropriate. And please, without comparing it to urinating in public or sex in a public place. I'm genuinely curious. What is offensive?

because it is selfish?

many were taught not to eat in front of others unless they were willing to share

 

[Salome]

I think most of America is like that: not really exposed to the idea of breastfeeding as normal, and therefore uncomfortable with the idea.

you are being taught where babies come from though, right?

 

[Greenlight]

many were taught not to eat in front of others unless they were willing to share

Have you tried reasoning with a baby that it should share it's bottle when it's screaming for a feed? Breastfed twins often feed at the same time -one reason why women have two breasts!
Given the overriding health benefits, Western society needs to get rid of its hang ups over breastfeeding in public. We've moved on from Victorian society where it was considered shocking for a women to show her ankle in public -laughable now, but hopefully public breastfeeding will be warranted the same reaction in future years.

 

[OceanGirl]

How do you measure the impact? Irvine suggested that not all bodily functions are appropriate for public view. On what principle do you distinguish one function from another?

Very simple, really. Urine and faeces are bodily waste. Breastmilk is a FOOD, which sustains the life of the baby. Don't forget that breastmilk is a baby's ONLY food for the first 6 months of its life. You cannot deny a baby its right to eat because some people feel embarassed about being around a breastfeeding mother.

Perhaps there is a correlation between an individuals objection to public breast feeding and the desire to keep sexual activity a purely private matter. In that case, perhaps the "breast as a symbol of sex" concept is influential.

You mean to say there are people who think that breastfeeding is a SEXUAL ACTIVITY??? See, this is what makes my blood boil. Perhaps it is time people stopped looking at breasts as "a symbol of sex" and see them for what they are. A food source for babies.

Along these lines, one can ask the question "is there any room for an expectation of modesty?"

Yes, there is room for modesty. If you saw me breastfeeding one of my babies, the only thing you would see is the back of my baby's head. Just because a woman is breastfeeding her baby, does NOT mean that she is flashing her breasts around for all to see.

Whether I believe that we should HAVE to be modest about breastfeeding our babies or not is an entirely different thing.

Another aspect to consider is the impact of personal functions around on others. Irvine drew a bright line with the "pee pee and poo poo" analysis. Does it end there? What about personal grooming? What about simply changing clothing? Would you change from street clothes to a swim suit in a public restaurant? Why not?

And to what degree do we regulate these behaviors based on our own desires vs. a desire not to offend someone else?

Anything that involves the exposure of genitalia (both male and female) in a pubic place is unacceptable. I'm sure most (normal) people would agree. Breasts do not fit into that category.

 

[Muggsy]

I think most of America is like that: not really exposed to the idea of breastfeeding as normal, and therefore uncomfortable with the idea.

hi! I came out my mom's womb, and you?

Actually, I've seen comments in prior threads that suggested the concept of modesty in this situation was an improper burden for the nursing mother

I'm always uncomfortable with the idea of "modesty", because it comes with the idea that women "are asking for sex if they are dressing unapropiately" (and even if I'm wearing a turtleneck I get verbally harrased in the streets ).

Saying that nursing moms should be "modest" is saying that what they are doing is sinful, that showing a part of their bodies to give life (not sex! wow!... boobs can do that too?) to a new being that needs them is sinful. I'm not saying that women should get naked to feed their babies, I just saying that we shouldn't take the privacy between a mom and her baby as "modesty", because she's not doing anything that should be hided.

 

[Angela Harlem]

It is rather moronic to suggest that breastfeeding is immodest, I agree Muggs. Besides the fact that most babies heads are larger than the boobs feeding them, most mothers are not going to feel too keen to overexpose themselves.

 

[WildHoneyAlways]

Perhaps it is time people stopped looking at breasts as "a symbol of sex" and see them for what they are. A food source for babies.

This company seems to do pretty well seeing breasts as a sex symbol. Where are the threads protesting them?

 

[Sue DeNym]

She gave her son a bottle at the table and a woman actually stopped by and said, "You know, you should be breast feeding that baby."

And if she had been breastfeeding the baby, some other Nosy Nellie would've told her off for "exposing herself in public"! You can't win!

I have seen women breastfeeding in public. I have never seen anyone "whip it out for the whole world to see", they are usually very discreet. Those who don't know otherwise think the baby is merely sleeping in Mommy's arms; the only giveaway being the slurping noise. Don't want to see it? Look away. Nobody is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to stare at her; I'm sure she'd prefer you didn't, anyway!

 

[deep]

Gibson then noticed another female sergeant and yelled, "What do you think you're looking at, sugar tits?"

Mel explains it all.

babies deserve a little sweetness