Extremists open fire at Paris satirical newspaper, kill 12 - Page 6 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 01-08-2015, 04:42 PM   #76
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator
 
Diemen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,238
Local Time: 10:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
Most people are championing freedom of expression in a secular society. There are obviously clear legal limits to that but freedom of expression most certainly DOES NOT stop where your religiously based offence starts. That's preposterous.

I for one am tired of special allowances being afforded to religion that we would not afford to anyone else. If there is a cartoon of Muhammad making out with a guy or of Piss Christ painting, who the hell cares?

I won't comment on the absurdity of your "they are morons or Muslim-haters" because that's really beneath any sort of rational discourse.
Well said.
__________________

__________________
Diemen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2015, 05:10 PM   #77
Blue Crack Addict
 
Vlad n U 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 28,014
Local Time: 03:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilsFan View Post
I don't think Charlie Hebdo cast the spotlight on bigotry, racism, and stupidity nearly as much as they think (or you) think they do. That's all. Again, I'm not saying they were asking for it any sense, I just don't think they should be celebrated as if they were doing a great thing. They were most certainly not. Their cartoons aren't funny and many times simply trip over satire on the way to being offensive. They have every right to do that and the people who did this are heinous, but that doesn't mean they should be held up as a bastion of wit.

This feels gross to talk about in light of what happened, but it seems like it's being overlooked too frequently here.
I still share this view, and obviously there's somewhat of a difference between French and Australian (where I live) society, but you wouldn't see anything published in even the most notorious Murdoch washcloths in Australia that would even come close to what I've seen from CH, out of context or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mama cass View Post
i guess that is the problem - people with no historical, cultural or emotional connection to the magazine are just discovering it now and making judgements via the internet... i find it insulting that people would think that France would hold a "reactionary far right rag" so dear, and miss the point completely, sorry

but yeah, i understand vlad is normally pretty on the ball with stuff, but i guess this is very "French" and i understand that i would have no clue about publications in many other countries, so i get that he was just inquisitive and maybe wasn't aware of the context of the cartoons he posted...
Quote:
Originally Posted by mama cass View Post
yeah sure, so i gave him a pounding first just in case it was a trick question, but then answered his question at least

ps: sorry vlad
Yeah it's fine, really, I wasn't expecting such a stern response myself. I thought I had made my query as clear as possible.
__________________

__________________
Vlad n U 2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2015, 06:57 PM   #78
Blue Crack Addict
 
PhilsFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Standing on the shore, facing east.
Posts: 18,886
Local Time: 11:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mama cass View Post
wow... Dude, you should really do your homework
k.
__________________
PhilsFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2015, 08:37 PM   #79
Self-righteous bullshitter
 
BoMac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Soviet Canuckistan — Socialist paradise
Posts: 16,666
Local Time: 12:54 PM
France has long defended the right to offend | Montreal Gazette
__________________

BoMac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2015, 09:05 PM   #80
Blue Crack Addict
 
PhilsFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Standing on the shore, facing east.
Posts: 18,886
Local Time: 11:54 AM
I want to respect that some people don't want to get into a back-and-forth like this on the back of an appalling tragedy so I'm going to toss this into the Spoiler.

 
There's a difference between mocking Muhammad and mocking sex slaves, and I think everyone here knows that. The problem isn't Muhammad and never was Muhammad. The problem is mocking marginalized people. Saying there are lines you shouldn't cross isn't limiting free speech. It's letting criticism, a fundamental part of free speech, into the conversation.

I think mocking sex slaves is punching down, and I apparently I need to do my homework? Not to pigeon hole this discussion into comparing two entities because it shouldn't be, but it is a good example: Last I checked I don't see The Onion regularly mocking transgender people. Why? Because there's no point. There's nothing to be gained. All you're going to do is hurt people who are marginalized for cheap laughs from people you shouldn't want to be making laugh. That's how I feel about Charlie Hebdo's regular employment of mocking Islamic people in a country (and continent) that is still very Islamophobic. Mock Muhammad? Great. But when you get into the marginalized people and say "Hey, everyone's a target!" you're just in the business of excuse making.

There are eminently reasonable people are more familiar with this entity than I am, and they seem to agree with this characterization of Charlie Hebdo. I'm sure there is some context that I'm unaware of that will fill in a few gaps, but I have a hard time believing I'm missing the boat by that much here.
__________________
PhilsFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2015, 09:36 PM   #81
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
mama cass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,906
Local Time: 05:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilsFan View Post
I want to respect that some people don't want to get into a back-and-forth like this on the back of an appalling tragedy so I'm going to toss this into the Spoiler.

 
There's a difference between mocking Muhammad and mocking sex slaves, and I think everyone here knows that. The problem isn't Muhammad and never was Muhammad. The problem is mocking marginalized people. Saying there are lines you shouldn't cross isn't limiting free speech. It's letting criticism, a fundamental part of free speech, into the conversation.

I think mocking sex slaves is punching down, and I apparently I need to do my homework? Not to pigeon hole this discussion into comparing two entities because it shouldn't be, but it is a good example: Last I checked I don't see The Onion regularly mocking transgender people. Why? Because there's no point. There's nothing to be gained. All you're going to do is hurt people who are marginalized for cheap laughs from people you shouldn't want to be making laugh. That's how I feel about Charlie Hebdo's regular employment of mocking Islamic people in a country (and continent) that is still very Islamophobic. Mock Muhammad? Great. But when you get into the marginalized people and say "Hey, everyone's a target!" you're just in the business of excuse making.

There are eminently reasonable people are more familiar with this entity than I am, and they seem to agree with this characterization of Charlie Hebdo. I'm sure there is some context that I'm unaware of that will fill in a few gaps, but I have a hard time believing I'm missing the boat by that much here.
 

this article isn't dissimilar to the interpretation i offered earlier, re. taking an extreme example, Boko Haram situation, to spoof cliched thinking by the French far right on issues such as welfare/immigration... basically all the FN's (far right party despised by CH) worst nightmares rolled into one...

make of it what you will... [fwiw i do not approve of this cartoon, i think it is particularly tasteless and insensitive, but i do not believe the intent/message was racist/xenophobic whatsoever]

What are some of Charlie Hebdo's most famous cartoons? - The Charlie Hebdo attack, explained - Vox

Quote:
This October 2014 cover stats "Boko Haram's sex slaves are angry"; the women, presumably victims of the Nigerian terrorist group, are shouting "Don't touch our welfare!" There are two ways to read this cover: as a deliberately tasteless, and indeed racist, depiction of Nigeria women; or as a provocative but nuanced satire expressing support for the French welfare state. There is real validity to both.

Charlie Hebdo covers often combined two unrelated stories to make a satirical point. In the context of the magazine's leftist politics, this seems to be about spoofing not Nigerian trafficking victims, but French welfare critics, who have argued that France should cut welfare programs to prevent immigrant women from exploiting them. The cover, in this view, seems to say, "Hey, welfare critics, you're so heartless that you probably think that even Nigerian sexual slavery victims are money-grubbing 'welfare queens.'"

At the same time, there is no getting around that the cover's point, even if its intention is to protect welfare for Nigerian immigrants to France, indulges some awfully racist stereotypes along the way.

This cover in many ways, then, captures Charlie Hebdo at its best and its worst, as a magazine that was daring and bitingly satirical, but whose bravery and defiance of the normal rules of good taste often took it several steps beyond mere provocation. That is not to condemn the magazine, but to understand it, which is among the least of what we owe them.
__________________
mama cass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2015, 09:45 PM   #82
Blue Crack Distributor
 
bono_212's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 81,105
Local Time: 08:54 AM
That article seems to be saying almost exactly what I'm reading Peef to be saying, though.
__________________
bono_212 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2015, 09:54 PM   #83
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
mama cass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,906
Local Time: 05:54 PM


brings to mind, when spoken-word theatre was historically banned in France (due to criticism/caricaturing/ridiculing of the aristocracy/leaders) it led to the emergence of mime - subversion always finds a way...
__________________
mama cass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2015, 09:55 PM   #84
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
mama cass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,906
Local Time: 05:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bono_212 View Post
That article seems to be saying almost exactly what I'm reading Peef to be saying, though.
depends which of the two interpretations you choose, i.e. spoofing the Nigerian girls, or spoofing/winding up the anti-immigration/anti-welfare for immigrants brigade - i thought PhilsFan was more about the first interpretation?
__________________
mama cass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2015, 10:24 PM   #85
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
mama cass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,906
Local Time: 05:54 PM
beautifully written article

Charlie Hebdo: Understanding is the least we owe the dead | Hari Kunzru | Comment is free | The Guardian
__________________
mama cass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2015, 11:36 PM   #86
Acrobat
 
Bad Exit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 413
Local Time: 10:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mama cass View Post
depends which of the two interpretations you choose, i.e. spoofing the Nigerian girls, or spoofing/winding up the anti-immigration/anti-welfare for immigrants brigade - i thought PhilsFan was more about the first interpretation?
He was more about the "defiance of the good taste often took it several steps beyond mere provocation".

---

I know that I have the right to be an asshole, and I know that we all need to fight and defend our right to be assholes, but that doesn't mean that I'm not being an asshole.
__________________
Bad Exit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2015, 12:05 AM   #87
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,499
Local Time: 11:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mama cass View Post
 

this article isn't dissimilar to the interpretation i offered earlier, re. taking an extreme example, Boko Haram situation, to spoof cliched thinking by the French far right on issues such as welfare/immigration... basically all the FN's (far right party despised by CH) worst nightmares rolled into one...

make of it what you will... [fwiw i do not approve of this cartoon, i think it is particularly tasteless and insensitive, but i do not believe the intent/message was racist/xenophobic whatsoever]

What are some of Charlie Hebdo's most famous cartoons? - The Charlie Hebdo attack, explained - Vox






This is the most nuanced and intelligent exchange I've read in FYM in at least a year. A low bar these days, but true.

Thank you both. I feel as if I understand the issue better now because I've read two thoughtful takes.


Sent from
__________________
Irvine511 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2015, 04:28 AM   #88
Blue Crack Addict
 
liamcool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: deep in absolutely bullshit historical theory/trauma theory
Posts: 16,695
Local Time: 02:54 AM
Hostage situation to the north of Paris. Apparently at least one hostage has been killed so far. Charlie Hebdo: 'major operation' north-east of Paris in hunt for suspects – live updates | World news | The Guardian
__________________
liamcool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2015, 04:34 AM   #89
Blue Crack Distributor
 
bono_212's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 81,105
Local Time: 08:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by liamcool View Post
Hostage situation to the north of Paris. Apparently at least one hostage has been killed so far. Charlie Hebdo: 'major operation' north-east of Paris in hunt for suspects – live updates | World news | The Guardian
"The Paris prosecutor’s office has denied reports that one person has been killed in a shootout."
__________________
bono_212 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2015, 04:36 AM   #90
Blue Crack Addict
 
liamcool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: deep in absolutely bullshit historical theory/trauma theory
Posts: 16,695
Local Time: 02:54 AM
Yep. Not much information - police are purposely keeping information from the media, because of possible monitoring of the media by the criminals.
__________________

__________________
liamcool is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com