Extremists open fire at Paris satirical newspaper, kill 12

[mama cass]

An absolute tragedy and a disgrace. Deeply saddening and troubling. Just getting a chance to read all about this now and it's just awful.

We should note that it's hard to talk about a story like this without addressing the rampant Islamophobia in France, and we need to remember that satire can still be racist. Freedom of speech is extremely important. But there's a responsibility we need to make sure we have when employing satire, and from what I've read Charles Hebdo may have shirked that responsibility. Am I saying they deserved any of this? Hell fucking no. But in describing this as a tragedy, it's probably important not to jump "This is a tragedy that never should have happened" to "This is a tragedy that never should have happened, and I fully support Charles Hebdo because they satirized everyone."

Charlie Hebdo was firebombed in 2011 due to publishing cartoons portraying Mohammed, the sadly now late Stephane Charbonnier (editor and cartoonist "Charb") had been living under police protection for years due to the threats and he was on the Al Quaeda wanted dead or alive list... sure they pushed the boundaries of satire, but they were standing up to bullies, and they refused to be intimidated as a matter of principle... humour is a precious freedom - you can't have bullies dictating what you can or cannot laugh at... religion can be incredibly ridiculous, and Charlie Hebdo was not afraid to put the spotlight on this (and every other issue known to humankind LOL)... otherwise what? will we just end up living in fear? pulling films from movie theaters??

and i'm not sure i would say "rampant Islamophobia", not among non-FN supporters for sure, we're not quite there yet, thankfully, i hope!!

 

[mama cass]

Simon Jenkins says it better than I can...

Charlie Hebdo: Now is the time to uphold freedoms and not give in to fear

Charlie Hebdo: Now is the time to uphold freedoms, not give in to fear | Simon Jenkins | Comment is free | The Guardian

 

[anitram]

Defending these cartoons works against furthering more important things like education for girls, and advancing women's rights.

Probably a discussion for another day.

But in principle I agree. When Bill Maher calls out progressives for their massive failings to speak out against the horrors in Muslim countries, he's right.

 

[Hewson]

what is the golden rule?
One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself. something like that?

these killers are true believers that want anyone killed that blasphemes The Prophet. If any member of their family or if they themselves ever did that they 100% believe they should be killed. They treat others as they would want others to threat them. They also do not disrespect other religions and expect others to do the same.

The cartoonists did not follow the Golden Rule.

They knew their actions would harm and injure others is that how they wanted to be treated?

Do you type this crap strictly to cause a stir?

 

[bono_212]

Yes.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

I was actually quite surprised to read that Charlie Hedbo is/was a leftist paper.

But in principle I agree. When Bill Maher calls out progressives for their massive failings to speak out against the horrors in Muslim countries, he's right.

Bill Maher should generally be ignored.

 

[anitram]

Bill Maher should generally be ignored.

He certainly says some very ignorant things (like vaccines cause autism) but he's actually been remarkably lucid and appropriately critical of progressives who have turned an almost complete blind eye to the way that women are treated in the Middle East.

 

[corianderstem]

I really liked what Salman Rushdie had to say about this:

In part, "I stand with Charlie Hebdo, as we all must, to defend the art of satire, which has always been a force for liberty and against tyranny, dishonesty and stupidity."

Salman Rushdie: I stand with 'Charlie Hebdo' | Shelf Life | EW.com

 

[Snowlock]

these killers are true believers that want anyone killed that blasphemes The Prophet. If any member of their family or if they themselves ever did that they 100% believe they should be killed.

Bullshit. That's the lie in this. That these terrorists are some sort of purists. The night before 911 the terrorists were drinking and partying. They found porn in Bin Laden's house. These people aren't believers, they're radicals and there's a world of difference between the two. A radical is just a crazy person; period. If religion hadn't ever been invented, they'd just find something else to latch their crazy on to.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

Can mama cass etc. explain what these images mean? I can't understand French.

Spoiler

 

[cobl04]

Really liked peef's post, something I missed in my haste.

 

[BoMac]

Bullshit. That's the lie in this. That these terrorists are some sort of purists. The night before 911 the terrorists were drinking and partying. They found porn in Bin Laden's house. These people aren't believers, they're radicals and there's a world of difference between the two. A radical is just a crazy person; period. If religion hadn't ever been invented, they'd just find something else to latch their crazy on to.

http://www.vox.com/2015/1/7/7509265/charlie-hebdo-cartoons

 

[Moser]

The poor French. Is yelling "God is great" while viciously murdering your countrymen honestly seen by some as act of valor?

Gosh, the world seemed so much better when I was young, ignorant, and had never heard of the word Islam.

 

[AEON]

Gosh, the world seemed so much better when I was young...

So say we all.

 

[mama cass]

Can mama cass etc. explain what these images mean? I can't understand French.

Spoiler

you're cherry picking vlad... they're a satirical publication known for being tasteless and going too far... and if you're trying to insinuate by these particular cartoons that they target a particular group, well, no, everything is fair game, all religions, politics, they put everything out there in your face whether you want to see it or not... (for instance, a dog humping Hollande's leg is one image that unfortunately comes to mind)

the first image illustrates a racist comment about a French MP made by a member of the extreme right Front National (their flame logo) which sent shockwaves thru the whole media at the time - it's an example of taking a stupid ignorant comment and blowing it up to highlight the ridiculousness and disgustingness (is that a word) of it, not letting it get ignored - showing the FN as they really are, how their attitudes haven't changed

the second, "allocs" means "benefits", so i'm guessing it's playing on prejudices (immigration, benefit claimers, a topic the extreme right are always harping on about) by using an extreme example

and the third, Dieudonne, long story which I don't have time to go into, French comic who seems to have veered wildly from the political left to the far right, recently known for promoting strongly antizionist and antisemitic views and having close associations with the extreme right (Le Pen senior is his child's godfather)... recently become an incendiary character in France (and hero to the extreme right)... but basically he promoted a gesture called the "quenelle" which is also a name for a type of food, sausage thing (the thing stuck up his ass basically) which was adopted by the extreme right in particular, used in nazi type poses by FN members and was believed to be a variation on the nazi salute

you have to think about their cartoons a little sometimes to get their meanings... sometimes they're not what they seem at first glance... often very sarcastic too

 

[Galeongirl]

There's another shooting happening this morning in Paris, but it's completely unclear if the cases are connected and if the perpetrators fled by metro or are caught.

 

[mama cass]

There's another shooting happening this morning in Paris, but it's completely unclear if the cases are connected and if the perpetrators fled by metro or are caught.

reports i've read are saying they've arrested the shooter from this morning's attack, but he is not the same person as from yesterday...

eta: now they're saying one person has been arrested but the shooter got away (from the shooting this morning)

there has also been an explosion this morning in a restaurant in eastern France, not a gas leak or anything, but apparently described as criminal...

 

[trainmaniac]

And another policeman killed in Paris...

 

[Vlad n U 2]

you're cherry picking vlad... they're a satirical publication known for being tasteless and going too far... and if you're trying to insinuate by these particular cartoons that they target a particular group, well, no, everything is fair game, all religions, politics, they put everything out there in your face whether you want to see it or not... (for instance, a dog humping Hollande's leg is one image that unfortunately comes to mind)

I'm not necessarily even cherry picking, it's just those cartoons stood out to me in particular, and simply enough I wanted to hear what they meant because otherwise I'm going to be left thinking it comes from some reactionary far right rag.

 

[mama cass]

I'm not necessarily even cherry picking, it's just those cartoons stood out to me in particular, and simply enough I wanted to hear what they meant because otherwise I'm going to be left thinking it comes from some reactionary far right rag.

that's why it's important to be aware of the context and to dig a little deeper to find the meaning... pretty sure most educated people following French news/current affairs would understand the meaning of those cartoons at least (well, actually they do, clearly!)... no way would a "reactionary far right rag" be so valued in France - give us some credit!

there is a difference between ridicule, casting the spotlight on bigotry, racism and stupidity (which Charlie Hebdo does), and incitement to racism/hatred ("reactionary far right rag")

 

[PhilsFan]

I don't think Charlie Hebdo cast the spotlight on bigotry, racism, and stupidity nearly as much as they think (or you) think they do. That's all. Again, I'm not saying they were asking for it any sense, I just don't think they should be celebrated as if they were doing a great thing. They were most certainly not. Their cartoons aren't funny and many times simply trip over satire on the way to being offensive. They have every right to do that and the people who did this are heinous, but that doesn't mean they should be held up as a bastion of wit.

This feels gross to talk about in light of what happened, but it seems like it's being overlooked too frequently here.

 

[cobl04]

Just out of curiosity Peef were you were aware of the sort of content Charlie Hebdo were publishing before this? I had never heard of the magazine until about this time last night.

Also mama cass Vlad is pretty switched on, I'm sure, like me, he would have perused a bunch of coverage and those were the cartoons that stood out that he wanted to understand. Just a curious inquisitor from overseas, not ignorant or deliberately selective.

 

[mama cass]

I don't think Charlie Hebdo cast the spotlight on bigotry, racism, and stupidity nearly as much as they think (or you) think they do.

perhaps not to you, but i think it's a huge cultural thing... perhaps incomprehensible to others... it's a French institution - people here are shaken by it tremendously

eta, re. spotlight - wtf?! they clearly rattled a few cages didn't they? the whole editorial team has just been decimated in a targeted terrorist attack!

it was about freedom, they had been targeted for years and knew it, the late editor and cartoonist Charb had said he would rather die standing up than live on his knees... fucksakes, respect

and he knew he could take that risk personally, and said he had no kids, no wife, so no fear of reprisals, and could therefore take a stand

 

[mama cass]

Just out of curiosity Peef were you were aware of the sort of content Charlie Hebdo were publishing before this? I had never heard of the magazine until about this time last night.

Also mama cass Vlad is pretty switched on, I'm sure, like me, he would have perused a bunch of coverage and those were the cartoons that stood out that he wanted to understand. Just a curious inquisitor from overseas, not ignorant or deliberately selective.

i guess that is the problem - people with no historical, cultural or emotional connection to the magazine are just discovering it now and making judgements via the internet... i find it insulting that people would think that France would hold a "reactionary far right rag" so dear, and miss the point completely, sorry

but yeah, i understand vlad is normally pretty on the ball with stuff, but i guess this is very "French" and i understand that i would have no clue about publications in many other countries, so i get that he was just inquisitive and maybe wasn't aware of the context of the cartoons he posted...

 

[cobl04]

I hate to defend the kid but I think he was genuinely just being inquisitive, not making judgements at all. He wasn't aware of the context, which is why he asked, I would have done the same...

 

[mama cass]

I hate to defend the kid but I think he was genuinely just being inquisitive, not making judgements at all. He wasn't aware of the context, which is why he asked, I would have done the same...

yeah sure, so i gave him a pounding first just in case it was a trick question, but then answered his question at least

ps: sorry vlad

 

[Irvine511]

i find these comments troubling but unsurprising:

Donohue goes on to say that "Stephane Charbonnier, the paper’s publisher, was killed today in the slaughter. It is too bad that he didn’t understand the role he played in his tragic death. In 2012, when asked why he insults Muslims, he said, 'Muhammad isn’t sacred to me.' Had he not been so narcissistic, he may still be alive. Muhammad isn’t sacred to me, either, but it would never occur to me to deliberately insult Muslims by trashing him."

Catholic League: Paris Terrorism Victims Have Themselves To Blame For Their Deaths - The New Civil Rights Movement

the problem, i think, really *is* religion -- at least the nature of religion, in that it offers the believer the illusion of Absolute Truth and Certainty.

 

[mama cass]

i find these comments troubling but unsurprising:




the problem, i think, really *is* religion -- at least the nature of religion, in that it offers the believer the illusion of Absolute Truth and Certainty.

the crazy thing is, commenters like these don't seem to be aware that French Muslims (and from other countries) are devastated by these events and have absolutely condemned the attack, and are between a rock and a hard place, between radical extremists betraying their beliefs and rising anti-Muslim sentiment in France, not to mention the Muslim victims, a subeditor at Charlie Hebdo who was Algerian, and the Muslim policeman brutally shot at point blank range on the street...

 

[PhilsFan]

perhaps not to you, but i think it's a huge cultural thing... perhaps incomprehensible to others... it's a French institution - people here are shaken by it tremendously

eta, re. spotlight - wtf?! they clearly rattled a few cages didn't they? the whole editorial team has just been decimated in a targeted terrorist attack!

it was about freedom, they had been targeted for years and knew it, the late editor and cartoonist Charb had said he would rather die standing up than live on his knees... fucksakes, respect

and he knew he could take that risk personally, and said he had no kids, no wife, so no fear of reprisals, and could therefore take a stand

The United States' most notable satirical publication is The Onion, but The Onion's satire targets those who deserve scorn. I can't imagine them ever putting together something like this:

I don't know why we need to hold up Charlie Hebdo as a champion of discourse in condemning these attacks.

 

[PhilsFan]

Just out of curiosity Peef were you were aware of the sort of content Charlie Hebdo were publishing before this? I had never heard of the magazine until about this time last night.

I didn't recognize the name at first but once I was reminded that they were the ones who received threats a few years ago, yes. I'm far from a study on them but my understanding of them is apparently far different from Mama Cass's, as everything I've heard about them before this and now after this tragedy has made me think they're racist and xenophobic.

The best description I saw of Charlie Hebdo was "a bunch of white guys punching down."