Extremists open fire at Paris satirical newspaper, kill 12 - Page 10 - U2 Feedback

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Old 01-12-2015, 03:13 AM   #136
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Ok, don't know about you, but I start feeling uncomfortable if I have to call a quarter of the society I live in stupid, intolerant or ignorant.
we're talking about the extreme right, right?

disturbing and worrying

out of interest, how would you describe them?


eta: here's an interesting article addressing some of these issues:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ty-and-freedom

Quote:
My overwhelming feeling was: may this spirit of resistance last. May this be a tipping point of Never Again. May this also be the start of a reckoning. Not only for France, but also for a Europe where we know jihadi networks – however much of a minority they may be – are growing, and where populism and xenophobia are also on the rise.

How did it come to this ? Unlike 9/11, unlike the Nazi occupation, this was not an attack from afar, from beyond a nation’s borders. It was a murderous danger that appeared from within France. The fanatical, indoctrinated, armed Islamists who assassinated 17 people in Paris were young French nationals, they were born and educated in France. This key aspect goes a long way in explaining why there was such an outpouring of grief and anger, and the need to reclaim France’s identity by a show of grassroots democratic strength.

Just as important was the presence of many European leaders and officials. It was not only about solidarity, but about restating what Europe is supposed to be about: tolerance, fundamental rights, rule of law. The antidotes against war.

“Je suis Charlie, je suis flic, je suis Juif” – this was the best, the strongest and most complete slogan that demonstrators brandished. I am Charlie, I am the police, I am Jewish. The terrorist attack had indeed three dimensions. First, they targeted not only freedom of speech but the right of blasphemy. The Charlie Hebdo cartoons may not have pleased everyone but they were about exercising a right that the French revolution of 1789 introduced. Before that, blasphemy was a crime.

Nothing Charlie Hebdo did ever violated democratically entrenched rights. In 2007, when the satirical magazine was prosecuted by Muslim organisations in France for supposedly inciting hatred and insulting Islam and Muslims at large, the court ruled that the magazine, even if it ruffled sensitivities, had not gone beyond “the admissible limits of freedom of speech”.

Secondly, the gunmen targeted police officers, shooting three dead in cold blood. Doing so, they attacked those whose mission is to uphold the rule of law. This was an attack on an institution of the republic as much as on individuals who were risking their lives as they attempted to stop the assailants.

Thirdly, the jihadi fanatics went for Jews. They committed a massacre inside a kosher shop, and hours before the start of the sabbath, making sure there would be many customers at hand. So it happened that on French soil, French citizens assassinated Jews just because they were Jewish. It was a tragedy that could only reignite the memory of second world war horrors. And it came less than three years after a bloody antisemitic attack in the French city of Toulouse, where three children were killed in a Jewish school.

Beyond Sunday’s spectacular display of unity against terror, questions must be asked: was enough done, in recent years, to fight back against the evil phenomenon that is now so vocally condemned? Was there enough solidarity when Charlie Hebdo was criticised and attacked for daring blasphemy? Or when it was abusively labelled racist, or anti-Arab, in a manner that completely distorted the very spirit of this magazine rooted in France’s 1968 movement of leftwing, progressive, free thinking? Was there a sufficient understanding of what it meant when police officers, in some French suburbs for instance, were greeted with stones being thrown at them, or even guns being fired? Was there enough reckoning of why some Jewish people in France have felt threatened, or ill at ease, and with emigration to Israel growing? And has there been enough clarity about how France’s social fabric is challenged when an antisemitic show, that of the so-called comedian Dieudonné, gathers millions of positive messages on social media, much of this coming from young people? I fear not.

These are the questions that will have to be addressed. These are problems to which durable solutions will need to be found. Make no mistake. Everyone was mobilised, determined and emotional in Paris on Sunday, but the deeper fault lines of French society, and the weakness shown in the recent past by its political parties, governments and institutions in dealing with them, will not have disappeared in one day, not through the magical wand of a massive and necessary demonstration
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Old 01-12-2015, 03:39 AM   #137
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I don't know, are approximately 25% of French citizens extremely right? That's the support of Front National in France at the moment.

I'd say no, they are not all on the far right, but yet they feel comfortable in voting for a party that is (as they did in the last European elections, where FN received the majority of votes).
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Old 01-12-2015, 03:53 AM   #138
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I don't know, are approximately 25% of French citizens extremely right? That's the support of Front National in France at the moment.

I'd say no, they are not all on the far right, but yet they feel comfortable in voting for a party that is (as they did in the last European elections, where FN received the majority of votes).
you have to bear in mind that sometimes the FN is used as a protest vote in France, like in the European elections last year, and the general elections in 2002, and, some would say, in the last general elections, with the French basically scaring the shit out of the more moderate politicians and population, but then rallying together for the second and final round of the elections to stop the extreme right getting in... although it has been getting way too close for comfort, and is very worrying indeed...

it can be quite taboo here to admit voting for the FN in certain circles, and many people vote secretly for the FN, so it's very complex... however, people i know of personally who openly vote for the FN state anti-Europe, anti-arab, anti-muslim and anti-immigration reasons, "France for the French", so make of that what you will... i don't know many intellectuals and business people personally who vote FN - the people i know personally in such positions tend to be left-wing academics, or UMP-voting business people... here, where i live, the vocal FN voters are blatantly racist, anti-immigration, anti-Europe, anti-Muslim and apparently not afraid to say so... i have one educated apparently intelligent acquaintance, French national but of Asian origin, who openly admits to voting FN because of immigration which i find mind-blowing...
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Old 01-12-2015, 07:38 AM   #139
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f'king hell, Hezbollah? what is going on... too much agreement, it's hard to handle!

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Islamic extremists following a ‘takfiri’ ideology are more offensive to the Prophet Mohammed than Western satirical cartoons, chief of the Lebanese military faction Hezbollah, Hasan Nasrallah, said following the Charlie Hebdo terrorist attack.

“The behavior of the takfiri groups that claim to follow Islam have distorted Islam, the Koran and the Muslim nation more than Islam’s enemies … who insulted the prophet in films… or drew cartoons of the prophet,” the Hezbollah leader said in a televised speech to mark the birthday of the Prophet Mohammed, according to Lebanon’s Daily Star.
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Old 01-12-2015, 10:59 AM   #140
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Ok, don't know about you, but I start feeling uncomfortable if I have to call a quarter of the society I live in stupid, intolerant or ignorant.
I would say 25% is an extremely low estimate of the "stupid, intolerant, or ignorant" proportion of human society.
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Old 01-12-2015, 12:26 PM   #141
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I would say 25% is an extremely low estimate of the "stupid, intolerant, or ignorant" proportion of human society.
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Old 01-12-2015, 03:03 PM   #142
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I would say 25% is an extremely low estimate of the "stupid, intolerant, or ignorant" proportion of human society.
Yeah, I don't know where he's living but it's pretty much 50/50 over here in North America...
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Old 01-12-2015, 04:22 PM   #143
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in America only 40% can do basin mathematics,
the other 65% can't even do that
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Old 01-13-2015, 02:43 AM   #144
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Why it's wrong to blame western policies for the Paris attacks | Left Foot Forward

thoughts?
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Old 01-13-2015, 03:12 AM   #145
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I tried reading it, but I couldn't get through this part without cringing.

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Others on the far left like the inveterate anti-American journalist Glenn Greenwald

I wouldn't have guessed it was a left wing site if it wasn't for me having read the about page.
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Old 01-13-2015, 04:14 AM   #146
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you have to bear in mind that sometimes the FN is used as a protest vote in France, like in the European elections last year, and the general elections in 2002, and, some would say, in the last general elections, with the French basically scaring the shit out of the more moderate politicians and population, but then rallying together for the second and final round of the elections to stop the extreme right getting in... although it has been getting way too close for comfort, and is very worrying indeed...

it can be quite taboo here to admit voting for the FN in certain circles, and many people vote secretly for the FN, so it's very complex... however, people i know of personally who openly vote for the FN state anti-Europe, anti-arab, anti-muslim and anti-immigration reasons, "France for the French", so make of that what you will... i don't know many intellectuals and business people personally who vote FN - the people i know personally in such positions tend to be left-wing academics, or UMP-voting business people... here, where i live, the vocal FN voters are blatantly racist, anti-immigration, anti-Europe, anti-Muslim and apparently not afraid to say so... i have one educated apparently intelligent acquaintance, French national but of Asian origin, who openly admits to voting FN because of immigration which i find mind-blowing...
France indeed has a very special culture when it comes to voting. You also have these kind of voters here. In one election, the far-right parties scored relatively well, four years later it was the Left, and the Nazis lost round about as much as the Left gained.

It's becoming increasingly acceptable for people to oppose immigrants, especially if they bring another religion with them.

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f'king hell, Hezbollah? what is going on... too much agreement, it's hard to handle!
Hezbollah is ally with Assad and Iran-sponsored, so this is some propaganda trying to attack ISIS and probably coming across as the more reasonable terrorists (would fit into attempts by Assad to present himself as an appropriate partner).

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I would say 25% is an extremely low estimate of the "stupid, intolerant, or ignorant" proportion of human society.
The exact numbers are rather irrelevant, but 25% is round about the figure that many populist and far-right parties could score in several European countries over the last few years.

My point is, this kind of support doesn't merely represent some frustrated unemployed high-school dropouts, but goes through all parts of society. And the issue of islamophob attitudes, where Islam is confused with extremism, is a societal one as well, and not contained within just one group in society.


Many people are attacking Charlie Hebdo and its cartoonists for the Mohammed caricatures and call them racist, without knowing much about the satirists background or their political leanings. DailyKos has collected a number of cartoons by Cabu, one of the four killed: The Charlie Hebdo cartoons no one is showing you.
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Old 01-13-2015, 04:54 AM   #147
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Many people are attacking Charlie Hebdo and its cartoonists for the Mohammed caricatures and call them racist, without knowing much about the satirists background or their political leanings. DailyKos has collected a number of cartoons by Cabu, one of the four killed: The Charlie Hebdo cartoons no one is showing you.
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Old 01-13-2015, 05:19 AM   #148
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link to this week's Charlie Hebdo cover... Muhammad with an "I am Charlie" sign, header saying "All is forgiven"

nuanced and many layered as always

it is not only a reflection of events, the outpouring of support and condemnation of the attacks, but also a big middle finger to repression of freedom of expression, possibly with sarcastic undertones in the header aimed at the French authorities/all political parties/all religious institutions too given their history with the magazine

it's perfect

http://www.huffingtonpost.fr/2015/01...frhpmg00000001

eta: and just wow "French satirical magazine’s surviving columnist says cover is a call to forgive the terrorists who murdered her colleagues last week"... incredible response... see they were just a bunch of sweet big-hearted funny people trying to make sense of the world thru their cartoons...

http://www.theguardian.com/media/201...ophet-muhammad
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Old 01-13-2015, 05:27 AM   #149
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in America only 40% can do basin mathematics,
the other 65% can't even do that
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Old 01-13-2015, 05:46 AM   #150
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in America only 40% can do basin mathematics,
the other 65% can't even do that
Basin mathematics? Like doing math over a sink?

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