ESPN Fires Employee For Jeremy Lin Headline

[Jive Turkey]

I've always been that trophy Black Friend

uh, the term is Token Black Friend, Sean. Jeeze

 

[maycocksean]

You make some good points, Sean, but there's a difference between racism and prejudice. I think much of what you wrote is better described as prejudice. I know it sounds a bit like I'm just arguing semantics and I guess I am, but racism is much more nefarious. It's not unrealistic for someone to claim they aren't racist

Eh, maybe. I just find the "I'm not racist" is too often a copout.

Ironically, the least racist people I know seem the least inclined to make that pronouncement. (Though granted they don't go around insisting they are racist either).

The thing is usually when someone is protesting they are not racist it's because of something they said or did that betrayed at the very least, prejudice if not latent racism.

I suppose one could argue that racism applies only to those that HATE a group of people because of their race, but again, I think that lets far too many of us off the hook. These days about the only people who will cop to actively hating a race are the supremacists.

When my wife and I got married (she's white) I got some flak from both blacks and whites (the blacks were worse I'm afraid). I knew people who loved me like a son, and who would insist to their dying day that they don't hate any group of people, certainly not based on skin color, yet would not have me marrying their daughter. (Lucky for me, my wife's family were not among these). Are we to absolve all of these people of racism--allow them to absolve themselves--simply because they don't "hate."

 

[maycocksean]

uh, the term is Token Black Friend, Sean. Jeeze

You are correct.

 

[maycocksean]

i can appreciate this distinction. racism seems more active, whereas prejudice is more passive.

one reason i bang on about this is that part of my coming out process was coming to grips with my own internalized homophobia. i sometimes find myself thinking homophobic things despite being a homo myself. it's something we all do. and the best thing is to recognize it, call it out, realize that we're all guilty to some degree of these things, it's how our brains work. so we deal with it.

So true.

I just feel this approach is so much more productive and so much more healthy than being in a kind of "I'm not racist denial."

It's not like you have to go around beating yourself up about it or anything. As you said, you deal with it.

 

[Jive Turkey]

Are we to absolve all of these people of racism--allow them to absolve themselves--simply because they don't "hate."

Again, good point. Maybe it was a bit of a superfluous point to bring up. I just think there should be a word we save for the truly hateful people of the world

 

[Jive Turkey]

i can appreciate this distinction. racism seems more active, whereas prejudice is more passive.

one reason i bang on about this is that part of my coming out process was coming to grips with my own internalized homophobia. i sometimes find myself thinking homophobic things despite being a homo myself. it's something we all do. and the best thing is to recognize it, call it out, realize that we're all guilty to some degree of these things, it's how our brains work. so we deal with it.

That's very interesting to me. I don't really have anything to add, I just find it to be a fascinating look into the way our brains operate.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I find it interesting that living in a diverse cultural environment doesn't in and of itself guarantee that racism will evaporate. I think any overcoming of racism has to be a conscious choice. It doesn't just happen by virtue of who you are surrounded by. At least that's my experience.

This is true, certainly. There will always be something out there that people will find to judge one on no matter where you go.

But having more exposure can at least give you a bit more chance to see that not everyone follows some stereotype you've grown up with. My dad grew up in the greater L.A. area. His parents had their own views on black people. But my dad went to school with a lot of black people-he tended to be the minority sometimes-and it further made him disagree with his parents on that issue.

Growing up I had a few blatantly racist "friends" who were totally fine with me because I wasn't "like the rest of them." I was a "good one." I was actually told that. More than once.

I really don't understand how someone thinks that's a good thing to just come right out and say. At least they were honest?

I also agree that if you have to make overtly loud proclamations that you aren't this or that, then you're likely falling prey to the "Me thinks thou protest too much" mindset.

 

[deep]

uh, the term is Token Black Friend, Sean. Jeeze

he just has a high opinion of himself.

 

[BVS]

but there's a difference between racism and prejudice. I think much of what you wrote is better described as prejudice. I know it sounds a bit like I'm just arguing semantics and I guess I am, but racism is much more nefarious. It's not unrealistic for someone to claim they aren't racist

I don't believe there is a distinction.

Since we've been using dictionary definitions:

1.
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

2.
a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

3.
hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Only one out of three have to do with hate. A belief of inherenent differences would fall under most people's definition of prejudice, the "idea that one's race is superior" doesn't always have to be active or blatant. When one says "Those damn [fill in racial/cultural group], they always. . . .", you are automatically claiming that your race is superior because they don't always do that.

I have found that maybe 5% of "I'm not a racist" claims to be honest, the other 95% usually comes from some sort of reaction to saying or believing that their prejudice is different from this other person's racism.

 

[BoMac]

Your shitty attitude makes it difficult to carry on a civil conversation.

Quoted for truth.

It's no secret around here that you don't know how to carry on a conversation without getting all bitchy. I wasn't being sensitive, just pointing something out for you.

Ditto.

 

[BVS]

I'm not the one getting personal in this thread.

Why don't you guys wait till I present a "shitty attitude", get "dickish", or get "bitchy" and then call me out on it?

I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[Jive Turkey]

I don't believe there is a distinction.

But there is a distinction. It's not an opinion

When one says "Those damn [fill in racial/cultural group], they always. . . .", you are automatically claiming that your race is superior because they don't always do that.

That's a bit of a stretch.

Just because only one of the definitions you showed actually used the word hate, it doesn't mean that there isn't an ingrained, resentful sentiment present in the others. Especially when the others used the phrases "the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others" and "a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.". I mean, they could've used 'hate' in all three, but being a dictionary, they probably like to mix it up a bit

 

[BVS]

But there is a distinction. It's not an opinion

Well then please spell out the distinction to me, because so far I haven't seen anyone convincingly do so.

That's a bit of a stretch.

How is it a stretch? Isn't there a certain implied superiority in a predjudice, aren't you implying that you are beyond such generalizations when you do so?

When someone makes a generalization that a certain group is lazy, stupid, dirty, etc. they're basically implying that they are none of these things. One doesn't usually imply that a group is stupid knowing that they themselves are stupid.

Just because only one of the definitions you showed actually used the word hate, it doesn't mean that there isn't an ingrained, resentful sentiment present in the others. Especially when the others used the phrases "the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others" and "a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.".

Isn't judgement based on resentful sentiment? Can you give me an example of prejudgement that doesn't have some resentfulness in it?

I mean, they could've used 'hate' in all three, but being a dictionary, they probably like to mix it up a bit

I would like to think that our language is based moreso on centuries of consensus and that a dictionary would like to cover all aspects of a word rather than just "mix it up a bit".

 

[Jive Turkey]

Well then please spell out the distinction to me, because so far I haven't seen anyone convincingly do so.

Look it up in the dictionary

How is it a stretch? Isn't there a certain implied superiority in a predjudice, aren't you implying that you are beyond such generalizations when you do so?

When someone makes a generalization that a certain group is lazy, stupid, dirty, etc. they're basically implying that they are none of these things. One doesn't usually imply that a group is stupid knowing that they themselves are stupid.

Those damn Russians are all alcoholics. I'm well aware that, being of Scottish and Irish decent, we have the same stereotype

Isn't judgement based on resentful sentiment? Can you give me an example of prejudgement that doesn't have some resentfulness in it?

All asians are smart. Spanish girls have nice asses. Black guys have big dicks. Italians are romantic

I would like to think that our language is based moreso on centuries of consensus and that a dictionary would like to cover all aspects of a word rather than just "mix it up a bit".

All the definitions they used referenced one another and they used the word hate in one of them. Would you have liked them to include "and hate too, like we just mentioned" at the end of each one?

Hate, deep seeded contempt, whatever you want to call it is different than simple prejudice. The fact that you want to file such a broad spectrum of behaviour under one word is absurd

 

[BVS]

Those damn Russians are all alcoholics. I'm well aware that, being of Scottish and Irish decent, we have the same stereotype

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about using and believing in generalizations, not just being aware of them.

All asians are good at math. Spanish girls have nice asses. Black guys have big dicks

The Spanish girls example is not prejudice it's a preference.

But you don't think the Asian and Black prejudice come with resentment? Of course they do.

Hate, deep seeded contempt, whatever you want to call it is different than simple prejudice. The fact that you want to file such a broad spectrum of behaviour under one word is absurd

Then what do you think is behind prejudice; love and admiration?

 

[Jive Turkey]

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about using and believing in generalizations, not just being aware of them.

Who said I don't believe them to some extent?

The Spanish girls example is not prejudice it's a preference.

Fine, juicy asses, if you want to get picky. It's hardly worth making a point of when I gave other examples. Besides, it would've been a prejudice based off of a preference

But you don't think the Asian and Black prejudice come with resentment? Of course they do.

No, I dont. It's quite a generalization to say that every person who believes asians are smart or black guys have big dicks isn't smart or doesnt have a big dick themself.

Then what do you think is behind prejudice; love and admiration?

If you can't see the difference between "The fucking Scots always get drunk and fight" and "The fucking jews are subhuman" then there's no getting through to you

 

[BVS]

Who said I don't believe them to some extent?

Look back at how you worded it. They are all drunks, I'm aware the same stereotype is out there about me. If you believed it then you would have to say they are all drunks and we are all drunks.

No, I dont. It's quite a generalization to say that every person who believes asians are smart or black guys have big dicks aren't smart or don't have big dicks themselves.

If you're brilliant in math then the only reason you would fall for such a prejudice is that you somehow believe they have some natural advantage over you, therefore it would be built upon resentment.

If you can't see the difference between "The fucking Scots always get drunk and fight" and "The fucking jews are subhuman" then there's no getting through to you

They're both terrible, just one is worse than the other. Of course I see the difference, but both are built on resentment or hatred.

 

[mikal]

my Dad has a friend named Dick and when he introduced me, i said "oh, you look like a Dick" as in "you look like a George or Karen", not "you look like a penis".

 

[Jive Turkey]

Look back at how you worded it. They are all drunks, I'm aware the same stereotype is out there about me. If you believed it then you would have to say they are all drunks and we are all drunks.

I believe that russians are heavy drinkers and I also believe that Irish/Scots are heavy drinkers.

If you're brilliant in math then the only reason you would fall for such a prejudice is that you somehow believe they have some natural advantage over you, therefore it would be built upon resentment.

This is completely illogical. You don't have to have self esteem issues to believe in a stereotype.

They're both terrible, just one is worse than the other. Of course I see the difference, but both are built on resentment or hatred.

I showed you prejudices that weren't based on resentment and hatred and you completely ignored them to make this statement. I'm not even saying prejudices can't be offensive. But painting everything with the racism brush cheapens the word for when it's used correctly

 

[BVS]

I believe that russians are heavy drinkers and I also believe that Irish/Scots are heavy drinkers.

And I know Russians and Scots that don't drink therefore dispelling this stereotype. So I have to wonder what it is about you that makes you believe every time you meet a Scot they're gonna be a drunk.

This is completely illogical. You don't have to have self esteem issues to believe in a stereotype.

Who said it always had to be based on self esteem issues? I think you're missing my point, my point is that if you truly believe in generalizations based solely on race then there is some underlying reason.

Why do you allow yourself to believe that every Asian excels in math?

Why do you allow yourself to think every Hispanic is lazy?

Even if the stereotype is positive, the reason you've allowed yourself to believe it is not.

I showed you prejudices that weren't based on resentment and hatred and you completely ignored them to make this statement. I'm not even saying prejudices can't be offensive. But painting everything with the racism brush cheapens the word for when it's used correctly

And shrugging off prejudices and why someone would generalize or lump one entire race into a behavior or trait is turning a blind eye and allowing racism to exist unchecked.

The idea that sexism, racism, etc only exist in the vacuum of blatant intent helps perpetuate its existence.

 

[Jive Turkey]

And I know Russians and Scots that don't drink therefore dispelling this stereotype. So I have to wonder what it is about you that makes you believe every time you meet a Scot they're gonna be a drunk.

I might say the say thing to a person who thinks that believing black guys have big dicks must come from a place of resentment.

You knowing Russians and Scots that don't drink has nothing to do with anything. Nobody said prejudices are 100% true; they're generalizations by definition. I really have no idea what you're arguing about anymore

 

[Jive Turkey]

And shrugging off prejudices and why someone would generalize or lump one entire race into a behavior or trait is turning a blind eye and allowing racism to exist unchecked.

The idea that sexism, racism, etc only exist in the vacuum of blatant intent helps perpetuate its existence.

It's not racism, its prejudice. I feel like you're regressing into writing tired, cliched arguments and blanket statements and not even discussing the points I'm making. It's probably a good time to put the conversation to bed

 

[BVS]

You knowing Russians and Scots that don't drink has nothing to do with anything. Nobody said prejudices are true. I really have no idea what you're arguing about anymore

I'm talking about those that allow themselves to believe and use prejudices. You say prejudices are not racist because not all judgements made on a race are founded on hatred. Right? Or am I misunderstanding you?

I'm saying prejudice is racism because any judgement based on someone's race is founded on some kind of lie, resentment, or feeling of superiority. And if you allow yourself to judge an entire race based on that, that is racism.

 

[Diemen]

Quick, someone find a gif of a man beating a dead horse.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

 

[PhilsFan]

Dear Lord.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

i haven't read one goddamn headline about Lin, so yeah, i believe it. I dont live in NEW YORK CITY nor do i give two shits about the latest new york sports hysteria. I haven't watched ESPN since the playoffs, i dont watch late night tv, basically im what you New Yorkers might call "out of touch" here in the heartland, so sue me. Yes im aware of who he is because i do watch the nightly news (to get to know the enemy), but im afraid they haven't done any puns. What is there to pun about the guy? 30,000 times? Big fucking deal, another overpaid athlete who happens to be Chinese.

Don't know how overpaid he is by NBA standards, he was living on his brother's couch. He's not making Le Bron money. Yes now he lives in a Trump building, but maybe Trump's giving him a break on the rent. I loathe Le Bron James and the kind of athlete and teammate he is, so a guy like Jeremy Lin is a great story in my eyes. Has nothing to do with New York, they were just lucky enough to get him. I heard they came close to cutting him too. He'd be a fantastic story anywhere, but to me it's even more impressive that he's doing it such in a high pressure place.

The guy had to put up with racist taunts even in college, and even from Ivy League people. Geez, can you imagine. Even "Ivy Leaguers" resort to that kind of thing. We don't need that in sports or anywhere else. The n word isn't considered appropriate, so we don't need chink either.

I want to give the guy the benefit of the doubt that he didn't do it intentionally, but the cynical side of me lets other thoughts creep in. It's sad that a guy's movie like story of perseverance and seizing an opportunity is surrounded by crap like this.

I don't know what you or others are so angry about, but whatever...If it's just going to be angry ranting and petty getting personal crap and contests of fill-in-the-blank then please lock it.

 

[Jive Turkey]

The n word isn't considered appropriate, so we don't need chink either.

I find this to be intersting

 

[PhilsFan]

Don't know how overpaid he is by NBA standards, he was living on his brother's couch. He's not making Le Bron money. Yes now he lives in a Trump building, but maybe Trump's giving him a break on the rent. I loathe Le Bron James and the kind of athlete and teammate he is, so a guy like Jeremy Lin is a great story in my eyes. Has nothing to do with New York, they were just lucky enough to get him. I heard they came close to cutting him too. He'd be a fantastic story anywhere, but to me it's even more impressive that he's doing it such in a high pressure place.

The guy had to put up with racist taunts even in college, and even from Ivy League people. Geez, can you imagine. Even "Ivy Leaguers" resort to that kind of thing. We don't need that in sports or anywhere else. The n word isn't considered appropriate, so we don't need chink either.

I want to give the guy the benefit of the doubt that he didn't do it intentionally, but the cynical side of me lets other thoughts creep in. It's sad that a guy's movie like story of perseverance and seizing an opportunity is surrounded by crap like this.

I don't know what you or others are so angry about, but whatever...If it's just going to be angry ranting and petty getting personal crap and contests of fill-in-the-blank then please lock it.

He's not overpaid by NBA standards, but he was living on his brother's couch because New York had not yet reached the point in the season where they were required to pay his full contract. They still had a couple of weeks before they were locked in. They could have cut him at some point and he would have simply gotten the prorated amount based on how much time he was on the roster.

And yes, Jive's right, it is a bit interesting that we are more comfortable saying chink than we are ******.

 

[U2DMfan]

It's not as interesting as indicative of the trained meaningless behavior of political correctness.