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Old 02-21-2012, 12:25 AM   #91
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I've always been that trophy Black Friend
uh, the term is Token Black Friend, Sean. Jeeze
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:30 AM   #92
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You make some good points, Sean, but there's a difference between racism and prejudice. I think much of what you wrote is better described as prejudice. I know it sounds a bit like I'm just arguing semantics and I guess I am, but racism is much more nefarious. It's not unrealistic for someone to claim they aren't racist
Eh, maybe. I just find the "I'm not racist" is too often a copout.

Ironically, the least racist people I know seem the least inclined to make that pronouncement. (Though granted they don't go around insisting they are racist either).

The thing is usually when someone is protesting they are not racist it's because of something they said or did that betrayed at the very least, prejudice if not latent racism.

I suppose one could argue that racism applies only to those that HATE a group of people because of their race, but again, I think that lets far too many of us off the hook. These days about the only people who will cop to actively hating a race are the supremacists.

When my wife and I got married (she's white) I got some flak from both blacks and whites (the blacks were worse I'm afraid). I knew people who loved me like a son, and who would insist to their dying day that they don't hate any group of people, certainly not based on skin color, yet would not have me marrying their daughter. (Lucky for me, my wife's family were not among these). Are we to absolve all of these people of racism--allow them to absolve themselves--simply because they don't "hate."
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:32 AM   #93
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uh, the term is Token Black Friend, Sean. Jeeze
You are correct.

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Old 02-21-2012, 12:34 AM   #94
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i can appreciate this distinction. racism seems more active, whereas prejudice is more passive.

one reason i bang on about this is that part of my coming out process was coming to grips with my own internalized homophobia. i sometimes find myself thinking homophobic things despite being a homo myself. it's something we all do. and the best thing is to recognize it, call it out, realize that we're all guilty to some degree of these things, it's how our brains work. so we deal with it.
So true.

I just feel this approach is so much more productive and so much more healthy than being in a kind of "I'm not racist denial."

It's not like you have to go around beating yourself up about it or anything. As you said, you deal with it.
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:39 AM   #95
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Are we to absolve all of these people of racism--allow them to absolve themselves--simply because they don't "hate."
Again, good point. Maybe it was a bit of a superfluous point to bring up. I just think there should be a word we save for the truly hateful people of the world
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:43 AM   #96
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i can appreciate this distinction. racism seems more active, whereas prejudice is more passive.

one reason i bang on about this is that part of my coming out process was coming to grips with my own internalized homophobia. i sometimes find myself thinking homophobic things despite being a homo myself. it's something we all do. and the best thing is to recognize it, call it out, realize that we're all guilty to some degree of these things, it's how our brains work. so we deal with it.
That's very interesting to me. I don't really have anything to add, I just find it to be a fascinating look into the way our brains operate.
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Old 02-21-2012, 01:01 AM   #97
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I find it interesting that living in a diverse cultural environment doesn't in and of itself guarantee that racism will evaporate. I think any overcoming of racism has to be a conscious choice. It doesn't just happen by virtue of who you are surrounded by. At least that's my experience.
This is true, certainly. There will always be something out there that people will find to judge one on no matter where you go.

But having more exposure can at least give you a bit more chance to see that not everyone follows some stereotype you've grown up with. My dad grew up in the greater L.A. area. His parents had their own views on black people. But my dad went to school with a lot of black people-he tended to be the minority sometimes-and it further made him disagree with his parents on that issue.

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Growing up I had a few blatantly racist "friends" who were totally fine with me because I wasn't "like the rest of them." I was a "good one." I was actually told that. More than once.
I really don't understand how someone thinks that's a good thing to just come right out and say. At least they were honest?

I also agree that if you have to make overtly loud proclamations that you aren't this or that, then you're likely falling prey to the "Me thinks thou protest too much" mindset.
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Old 02-21-2012, 02:56 AM   #98
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uh, the term is Token Black Friend, Sean. Jeeze
he just has a high opinion of himself.
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Old 02-21-2012, 07:36 AM   #99
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but there's a difference between racism and prejudice. I think much of what you wrote is better described as prejudice. I know it sounds a bit like I'm just arguing semantics and I guess I am, but racism is much more nefarious. It's not unrealistic for someone to claim they aren't racist
I don't believe there is a distinction.

Since we've been using dictionary definitions:

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1.
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

2.
a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

3.
hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
Only one out of three have to do with hate. A belief of inherenent differences would fall under most people's definition of prejudice, the "idea that one's race is superior" doesn't always have to be active or blatant. When one says "Those damn [fill in racial/cultural group], they always. . . .", you are automatically claiming that your race is superior because they don't always do that.

I have found that maybe 5% of "I'm not a racist" claims to be honest, the other 95% usually comes from some sort of reaction to saying or believing that their prejudice is different from this other person's racism.
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Old 02-21-2012, 08:58 AM   #100
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Your shitty attitude makes it difficult to carry on a civil conversation.
Quoted for truth.

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It's no secret around here that you don't know how to carry on a conversation without getting all bitchy. I wasn't being sensitive, just pointing something out for you.
Ditto.
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Old 02-21-2012, 09:53 AM   #101
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I'm not the one getting personal in this thread.

Why don't you guys wait till I present a "shitty attitude", get "dickish", or get "bitchy" and then call me out on it?

I would greatly appreciate it.
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:03 AM   #102
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I don't believe there is a distinction.
But there is a distinction. It's not an opinion

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When one says "Those damn [fill in racial/cultural group], they always. . . .", you are automatically claiming that your race is superior because they don't always do that.
That's a bit of a stretch.

Just because only one of the definitions you showed actually used the word hate, it doesn't mean that there isn't an ingrained, resentful sentiment present in the others. Especially when the others used the phrases "the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others" and "a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.". I mean, they could've used 'hate' in all three, but being a dictionary, they probably like to mix it up a bit
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:58 AM   #103
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But there is a distinction. It's not an opinion
Well then please spell out the distinction to me, because so far I haven't seen anyone convincingly do so.


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That's a bit of a stretch.
How is it a stretch? Isn't there a certain implied superiority in a predjudice, aren't you implying that you are beyond such generalizations when you do so?

When someone makes a generalization that a certain group is lazy, stupid, dirty, etc. they're basically implying that they are none of these things. One doesn't usually imply that a group is stupid knowing that they themselves are stupid.


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Just because only one of the definitions you showed actually used the word hate, it doesn't mean that there isn't an ingrained, resentful sentiment present in the others. Especially when the others used the phrases "the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others" and "a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.".
Isn't judgement based on resentful sentiment? Can you give me an example of prejudgement that doesn't have some resentfulness in it?

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I mean, they could've used 'hate' in all three, but being a dictionary, they probably like to mix it up a bit
I would like to think that our language is based moreso on centuries of consensus and that a dictionary would like to cover all aspects of a word rather than just "mix it up a bit".
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:35 AM   #104
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Well then please spell out the distinction to me, because so far I haven't seen anyone convincingly do so.
Look it up in the dictionary


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How is it a stretch? Isn't there a certain implied superiority in a predjudice, aren't you implying that you are beyond such generalizations when you do so?

When someone makes a generalization that a certain group is lazy, stupid, dirty, etc. they're basically implying that they are none of these things. One doesn't usually imply that a group is stupid knowing that they themselves are stupid.
Those damn Russians are all alcoholics. I'm well aware that, being of Scottish and Irish decent, we have the same stereotype

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Isn't judgement based on resentful sentiment? Can you give me an example of prejudgement that doesn't have some resentfulness in it?
All asians are smart. Spanish girls have nice asses. Black guys have big dicks. Italians are romantic

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I would like to think that our language is based moreso on centuries of consensus and that a dictionary would like to cover all aspects of a word rather than just "mix it up a bit".
All the definitions they used referenced one another and they used the word hate in one of them. Would you have liked them to include "and hate too, like we just mentioned" at the end of each one?

Hate, deep seeded contempt, whatever you want to call it is different than simple prejudice. The fact that you want to file such a broad spectrum of behaviour under one word is absurd
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:51 AM   #105
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Those damn Russians are all alcoholics. I'm well aware that, being of Scottish and Irish decent, we have the same stereotype
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about using and believing in generalizations, not just being aware of them.

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All asians are good at math. Spanish girls have nice asses. Black guys have big dicks
The Spanish girls example is not prejudice it's a preference.

But you don't think the Asian and Black prejudice come with resentment? Of course they do.
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Hate, deep seeded contempt, whatever you want to call it is different than simple prejudice. The fact that you want to file such a broad spectrum of behaviour under one word is absurd
Then what do you think is behind prejudice; love and admiration?
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