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Old 08-21-2013, 06:09 PM   #46
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In Islam - they are one and the same.
That's incredibly weak. I know you're brighter than this.
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Old 08-21-2013, 06:24 PM   #47
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That's incredibly weak. I know you're brighter than this.
Thanks for the encouragement, can you please enlighten me and how they are not the same? T

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Islam cannot be “reformed” unless its caretakers repudiate its instruction manuals. But their repudiation would necessarily entail the repudiation of Islam. When the manuals go up in flames, so will Islam.
From the Ayn Rand inspired capitalismmagazine.com
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Old 08-21-2013, 06:29 PM   #48
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Thanks for the encouragement, can you please enlighten me and how they are not the same? T



From the Ayn Rand inspired capitalismmagazine.com
Take a look at the history of man. How many theocracies have come and gone?

Take a look at Christianity, there are many that would still interpret it and want a theocracy that followed the Bible word for word. Luckily we don't have that, but we both know that given the right circumstances any religion can be manipulated into one and people would say the exact same thing you are saying about the Muslim religion.
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Old 08-21-2013, 06:36 PM   #49
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In Islam - they are one and the same.

Do you know any American Musilms?
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Old 08-21-2013, 06:39 PM   #50
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Take a look at the history of man. How many theocracies have come and gone?
True - and "gone" is what we hope for.

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Luckily we don't have that, but we both know that given the right circumstances any religion can be manipulated into one and people would say the exact same thing you are saying about the Muslim religion.
I agree. But in our modern world, Islam is the only one successfully carrying this out.

I am with you and Irvine - I agree that a secular government is the answer. Unfortunately, in Muslim dominated countries, that's not what you get? Why is that?
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Old 08-21-2013, 06:40 PM   #51
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Do you know any American Musilms?

Admiral Ackbar - "It's A Trap!" - YouTube
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Old 08-21-2013, 06:45 PM   #52
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from that same article

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Any theocracy must be totalitarian. It can become totalitarian by default or happenstance or by negligence, or it can become totalitarian according to an instruction manual written by clerics and intellectuals friendly to what they know in their minds are dystopias for the masses and paradises for the rulers. Islam has its instruction manuals.
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Apologists for Islamism like to portray those groups as liberation movements, but there is nothing liberating about terrorist groups run by millionaires and billionaires, doctors and other degree holders, and funded by the ruling clans of Kuwait, the UAE and Saudi Arabia. These ruling families have the most to lose from modernization, and though they build skyscrapers in their cities, they also helped orchestrate the Arab Spring to topple more modern governments and replace them with parties affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood.
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Old 08-21-2013, 07:03 PM   #53
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True - and "gone" is what we hope for.



I agree. But in our modern world, Islam is the only one successfully carrying this out.

I am with you and Irvine - I agree that a secular government is the answer. Unfortunately, in Muslim dominated countries, that's not what you get? Why is that?
Because the majority have a small ruling elite? Again a leftover of colonialism. It's not a result of Islam, the same as Kings and Queens were not the result of Christianity. Most of these Muslim countries did not exist 100 years ago, tell me how these many disparate groups of people, tribes and ethnicities who suffered under colonial rule were meant to band together into stable states with most power structures removed and borders created out of the desert?

That article you've just posted perfectly illustrates it is the rich and powerful orchestrating things to maintain their own power. It has little to do with the religion. Islam is just a tool, it is not the threat. The threat is the wild economic imbalance in these states that entrenches large sections of their populations in poverty.

I am not apologising for Islam, I don't give a crap about it. But your approach of demonising all of islam is only going to create more problems for you than actually dealing with the issues that exist in the middle east.
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Old 08-21-2013, 07:09 PM   #54
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Quoting from an Ayn Rand inspired magazine is not helpful either, its an ideology heavily bankrupt of any human caring characteristics.
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Old 08-21-2013, 07:30 PM   #55
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Quoting from an Ayn Rand inspired magazine is not helpful either, its an ideology heavily bankrupt of any human caring characteristics.
True - but I thought it was important to not use a source with a Christian based agenda. She was about as atheist as they come.
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Old 08-22-2013, 12:33 AM   #56
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How the American government has handled this from start to finish has been incredibly painful.

I don't for one second think they're stupid enough to fail to realize they've been aiding the wrong side from the get-go both in Egypt and across the rest of the Middle East like in Syria. I just desperately want to know the truth.
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Old 08-22-2013, 12:57 AM   #57
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How the American government has handled this from start to finish has been incredibly painful.

I don't for one second think they're stupid enough to fail to realize they've been aiding the wrong side from the get-go both in Egypt and across the rest of the Middle East like in Syria. I just desperately want to know the truth.
Unfortunately - I think the truth is the only thing the US government (and all other governments for that matter) really care about is that the Suez Canal remains open for business.
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Old 08-22-2013, 01:53 AM   #58
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That would explain supporting the Muslim Brotherhood at first, but it fails to explain what's going on now, and it also fails to explain arming rebels in Syria.

This government had consistently played for the wrong side against "oppressive dictators" on the Middle East. Realistically speaking, the only "dictator" who needed to be removed from power was Gadaffi. Not Sadam Hussein, not Mubarak, not Al Assad, not the Egyptian military.

If what you were saying is true, they would never have gone to the extent that they have to destabilize the entire Middle East. It wreaks of appeasement.
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:29 AM   #59
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Come on, you're better than that dodge. It's a trap inasmuch as it shows that Islam an theocracy are not one and the same, as there are millions of devout Muslims perfectly content to practice their faith peacefully in a secular society.
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:42 AM   #60
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Come on, you're better than that dodge. It's a trap inasmuch as it shows that Islam an theocracy are not one and the same, as there are millions of devout Muslims perfectly content to practice their faith peacefully in a secular society.
The problem with the question, (and he asked the same question about whether I knew gay people), is that when it is answered - it is automatically cliche ("some of my best friend are [fill in blank]"). Either that, or you're attacked for not befriending a person of that group. It's a trap.
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