Do you believe in hell? - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 03-13-2011, 03:07 PM   #1
Refugee
 
jonnytakeawalk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: living underground, eating from a can
Posts: 1,233
Local Time: 11:44 AM
Do you believe in hell?

If so how do you invision it? Is it a place of eternal torture and fire- wheeping and gnashing of teeth and the rest? Do you consider it to be a physical place or a state of existence?

For me while I want to be a Christian I still have trouble resolving a loving and just God as also being one who also sends most of his creation to eternal torture (Christian's may use the free will argument here but you name me someone who would freely choose an eternity of torture were they certain of it happening.)

I remember some Evangelicals being somewhat outraged when Obama made this quote about his Mother that they thought 'proved' he was not a Christian.... "[S]he was the kindest, most decent, generous person that I have ever known," Obama said, according to the Times. "I'm sure she is in heaven, even though she may not have subscribed to everything that I subscribe to."

That they would rather Obama believe she was suffering for eternity in hell than be in heaven is pretty disgraceful.

(By the way I'm sorry if this seems an insensitive topic considering the tragedy in Japan but I guess death is all around us all the time.)
__________________

__________________
jonnytakeawalk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2011, 03:25 PM   #2
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BEAL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,568
Local Time: 11:44 AM
I find it just as likely as a eternity of bliss.

It's used as a control method of the masses. You tell someone that if they're good and believe/accept jesus, then you will go to a good place and see those you love and there's nothing bad.

That's a hell of an idea to get behind. But some people didn't believe, so you needed a way to get more support or following, so you say IF you don't do as the lord says, then you are cast into a horrible place for eternity to suffer for your sin(s).

And then in the same breath you'll be told God is Love.

If you have kids, or were a child obviously, and you goofed, maybe you threw a tantrum at your parents, or beat up a sibling, or had bad grades......your parents punish you, but they don't outcast you or hold it against you forever. So why would a God/Creator do the same?

I'm an Atheist and I'm finding it much harder to be accepted here in state/country. Though not surprising when the first 4 commandments are against my lack of belief, yet murder or adultery are listed 5th or 6th, so i get the feeling that being a critical thinker and using science and logic are actually worse than me killing someone.

I think Hell/Heaven is just another way for man to judge another, yet hide behind a higher power to do it. Much like sports heros or muscians thank god when they win an award, it's really just them saying "LOOK HOW GREAT I AM" but under the fake guise of humility.

Now if you make a mistake, someone can say "you're going to hell". Well excuse me but, fuck you. We all make mistakes, and for a majority of human beings, we have the emotion of remorse and an even bigger virtue of forgiveness.

If people would use more of that right away, rather than immediately think of what happens after their death, maybe we don't have the issues we are presnted with.
__________________

__________________
BEAL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2011, 04:29 PM   #3
Acrobat
 
Billy Rotten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Maritimes
Posts: 454
Local Time: 08:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BEAL View Post
I find it just as likely as a eternity of bliss.

It's used as a control method of the masses. You tell someone that if they're good and believe/accept jesus, then you will go to a good place and see those you love and there's nothing bad.

That's a hell of an idea to get behind. But some people didn't believe, so you needed a way to get more support or following, so you say IF you don't do as the lord says, then you are cast into a horrible place for eternity to suffer for your sin(s).

And then in the same breath you'll be told God is Love.

If you have kids, or were a child obviously, and you goofed, maybe you threw a tantrum at your parents, or beat up a sibling, or had bad grades......your parents punish you, but they don't outcast you or hold it against you forever. So why would a God/Creator do the same?

I'm an Atheist and I'm finding it much harder to be accepted here in state/country. Though not surprising when the first 4 commandments are against my lack of belief, yet murder or adultery are listed 5th or 6th, so i get the feeling that being a critical thinker and using science and logic are actually worse than me killing someone.

I think Hell/Heaven is just another way for man to judge another, yet hide behind a higher power to do it. Much like sports heros or muscians thank god when they win an award, it's really just them saying "LOOK HOW GREAT I AM" but under the fake guise of humility.

Now if you make a mistake, someone can say "you're going to hell". Well excuse me but, fuck you. We all make mistakes, and for a majority of human beings, we have the emotion of remorse and an even bigger virtue of forgiveness.

If people would use more of that right away, rather than immediately think of what happens after their death, maybe we don't have the issues we are presnted with.
Yup!
__________________
Billy Rotten is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2011, 04:30 PM   #4
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Casamares's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Poland
Posts: 3,699
Local Time: 01:44 PM
I look at it this way:
Assuming there's a kind of life after death which depens on the previous one and that heaven is spending the whole eternity with God, then hell must be something opposite, so a place without God.
You decide where you go, during your life. God doesn't want to force anybody to choose heaven (that's why He gave people free will), so there must be an alternative place where people are left alone with their sins.
I find the vision of hell as a boiler full of tar etc. a metaphor. If the Bible was written nowadays, I bet that images describing hell would be more modern.
__________________
Casamares is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2011, 04:43 PM   #5
Refugee
 
jonnytakeawalk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: living underground, eating from a can
Posts: 1,233
Local Time: 11:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casamares View Post
I look at it this way:
God doesn't want to force anybody to choose heaven (that's why He gave people free will), so there must be an alternative place where people are left alone with their sins.
This argument confuses me. Why would anyone not want to choose heaven if it is indeed where God is and where all the good we have in the world (love, compassion, etc) will also be?

If you do see God as a parent figure (and we are his confused little children) then like a parent figure surely in this case he should decide for us what is best (that we should spend eternity with him.)
__________________
jonnytakeawalk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2011, 04:52 PM   #6
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 06:44 AM
To be honest I'm not sure what I believe anymore, but when I DID believe in heaven, I didn't believe it was a magical place up in the clouds. My understanding was that Jesus would return to earth to build a new heaven, here, because heaven = where Jesus is. Even if I believed in the idea of Jesus/God/some deity returning to earth to create a heaven here, I'm not sure I'd believe in hell. I think I subscribe to more of a "cold is the absence of heat" concept, so being in hell would be not being in heaven.
__________________
Liesje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2011, 04:53 PM   #7
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 06:44 AM
The dilemma described is quite accurate for most Christians. If the "saved" will go to heaven, then there must be an alternative location for those who are not.

However, I don't believe in the concept of an eternal soul (Full disclosure: my church does not teach the existence of an eternal soul, so I'm sure a big part of why I believe that way is because that's how I was taught. However, it makes a lot of sense to me as well in conceiving a loving God).

The whole rationale for the existence of hell is tied up in the belief in the eternal soul--it's debatable whether the two can be seperated. So what I believe is that when we die, that's it. There's no spirit floating around somewhere else. In that sense my faith has a very materialistic aspect to it--I have no problem with our existence being defined by chemistry etc and don't see it as conflicting with my belief in God. I do believe that there will be an opportuinity to live in heaven for eternity someday but I don't think anyone is there right now. When this world ends, those that opt out of heaven would simply cease to exist rather than be tormented in whatever manner for eternity.

To me the doctrine of hell is the worst thing ever to happen to the Christian faith. I don't blame people for not wanting anything to do with it, considering the type of God we are promoting. A God that would torment/allow torment for eternity is truly ugly and there's no compassionate parallel to such an approach in our human experience.

I'm sure there will be those who will declare that my beliefs are a false teaching, but I'm okay with that.
__________________
maycocksean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2011, 05:07 PM   #8
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Casamares's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Poland
Posts: 3,699
Local Time: 01:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnytakeawalk View Post
This argument confuses me. Why would anyone not want to choose heaven if it is indeed where God is and where all the good we have in the world (love, compassion, etc) will also be?
Ask murderers why they choose hell. Many people choose hell. It doesn't work like you say "I want to go to heaven" and it's done, you'll go there.

Quote:
If you do see God as a parent figure (and we are his confused little children) then like a parent figure surely in this case he should decide for us what is best (that we should spend eternity with him.)
Your statement really limits God and people as well. God wanted people to be something more than his puppets. We have brains, free will and ability of choice.
Imagine that a man wants to get married. He can kidnap a girl and force her to live with him. But he also can ask her to do it and she can agree. Which situation describes a true love? This is the situation with God we're talking about.
__________________
Casamares is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2011, 05:20 PM   #9
Refugee
 
jonnytakeawalk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: living underground, eating from a can
Posts: 1,233
Local Time: 11:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casamares View Post
Ask murderers why they choose hell. Many people choose hell. It doesn't work like you say "I want to go to heaven" and it's done, you'll go there.
Perhaps murders would choose hell, quite frankly I don't care what happens to murderers. According to Jesus there will be many more people that go to hell than go to heaven so the vast majority are not murderers but everyday regular sinners like you and me. Would these people really choose an eternity without love?

Quote:
Your statement really limits God and people as well. God wanted people to be something more than his puppets. We have brains, free will and ability of choice.
Imagine that a man wants to get married. He can kidnap a girl and force her to live with him. But he also can ask her to do it and she can agree. Which situation describes a true love? This is the situation with God we're talking about.
That analogy doesn't quite work though when the consequences of the woman not accepting the mans invitation to live with him means she will be cut off from any form of love for eternity.

and in any case you're not talking about a choice that the majority of people are aware they're making.
__________________
jonnytakeawalk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2011, 05:25 PM   #10
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 06:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post
The dilemma described is quite accurate for most Christians. If the "saved" will go to heaven, then there must be an alternative location for those who are not.

However, I don't believe in the concept of an eternal soul (Full disclosure: my church does not teach the existence of an eternal soul, so I'm sure a big part of why I believe that way is because that's how I was taught. However, it makes a lot of sense to me as well in conceiving a loving God).

The whole rationale for the existence of hell is tied up in the belief in the eternal soul--it's debatable whether the two can be seperated. So what I believe is that when we die, that's it. There's no spirit floating around somewhere else. In that sense my faith has a very materialistic aspect to it--I have no problem with our existence being defined by chemistry etc and don't see it as conflicting with my belief in God. I do believe that there will be an opportuinity to live in heaven for eternity someday but I don't think anyone is there right now. When this world ends, those that opt out of heaven would simply cease to exist rather than be tormented in whatever manner for eternity.

To me the doctrine of hell is the worst thing ever to happen to the Christian faith. I don't blame people for not wanting anything to do with it, considering the type of God we are promoting. A God that would torment/allow torment for eternity is truly ugly and there's no compassionate parallel to such an approach in our human experience.

I'm sure there will be those who will declare that my beliefs are a false teaching, but I'm okay with that.
I like
__________________
Liesje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2011, 05:44 PM   #11
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Casamares's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Poland
Posts: 3,699
Local Time: 01:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnytakeawalk View Post
Perhaps murders would choose hell, quite frankly I don't care what happens to murderers. According to Jesus there will be many more people that go to hell than go to heaven so the vast majority are not murderers but everyday regular sinners like you and me. Would these people really choose an eternity without love?
First of all, we're all sinners, so both heaven and hell are full of sinners. The only difference is what they did with their sins. Choosing heaven is the process of overcoming our sinful nature.


Quote:
That analogy doesn't quite work though when the consequences of the woman not accepting the mans invitation to live with him means she will be cut off from any form of love for eternity.

and in any case you're not talking about a choice that the majority of people are aware they're making.
Ok, I understand you at that point.
But if a person was forced to go to heaven, it wouldn't automatically mean he would be happy there. Eternity with somebody he didn't want to know (God)? In turn if God forced this person to love Him and be happy in connection with God's presence, then He would be the biggest egomaniac. That would be extremely artificial love and artificial happiness.
__________________
Casamares is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2011, 06:16 PM   #12
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BEAL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,568
Local Time: 11:44 AM
But God is forcing you to make a choice based on fear, and that's not really free will, it's playing the odds.

I can give you a choice; take me at my word that i'm a GOD and I'll give you an eternity of happieness. If you choose the other, I'm going to beat you with a baseball bat over and over and over and over.

So what would you choose?

You're fine to believe what you believe, I won't try to change your mind. But if there is a GOD, why does entry into His kingdom have to be on blind faith? True free will would mean there is actual proof of said God, given the rules, and then if you still choose to go on your own, then that's on you.

But to make it a mystery, you're forcing people to believe because of the fear of unknown. A loving person would never make a threat like that to someone they care about, so why would we accept our loving Creator that way? A true God by definition has everything, it created everything and is everything, therefore shouldn't need it's flawed creations to worship or pray to it. What could God need with our blessings or worship? It has everything, unless it's a ego thing.....which I suppose a God could have one.

And if you're fine with just going on faith, more power to you. I will continue to live my life as a good person, based on the core values of humanity, and in the end if that wasn't good enough for the Creator, then I will accept my fate. But I don't believe there is anything, so I'm not going to worry about what my death is going to bring....I'll be dead and incapable of knowing.
__________________
BEAL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2011, 06:17 PM   #13
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,653
Local Time: 07:44 AM
I want to believe that the traditional hell exists. This way evil people like Hitler, Pol Pot, and that Austrian father who locked his daughter up in a cellar and raped her for 24 years go there to be tortured.

But the way I see it, there is a human soul and you are in charge of it. I believe if you nourish your soul enough and bring it to life and close to God, you'll be with God in the end. If you don't take care of your soul, you'll cease to exist when you die.

That is how I make sense out of the thought of loving God sending people to eternal hell. I think people send themselves to hell. If it does exist, that's where you go if you don't take care of yourself.

I haven't really thought about much of the afterlife even though I should. Heck, I'm open to the idea of reincarnation.
__________________
Pearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2011, 06:19 PM   #14
Refugee
 
jonnytakeawalk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: living underground, eating from a can
Posts: 1,233
Local Time: 11:44 AM
Quote:
Ok, I understand you at that point.
But if a person was forced to go to heaven, it wouldn't automatically mean he would be happy there. Eternity with somebody he didn't want to know (God)? In turn if God forced this person to love Him and be happy in connection with God's presence, then He would be the biggest egomaniac. That would be extremely artificial love and artificial happiness.
If God is love and compassion and all things good in the world then who would not be happy in this company? Murderers you said. Right, fair enough perhaps but everyday human beings that aren't psychopaths need love and they need God whether they know it or not. Sending them to hell for eternity is not the nature of a loving God. They did not send themselves there. No normal person would choose an eternity without love.
__________________
jonnytakeawalk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2011, 07:35 PM   #15
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 06:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casamares View Post
First of all, we're all sinners, so both heaven and hell are full of sinners. The only difference is what they did with their sins. Choosing heaven is the process of overcoming our sinful nature.




Ok, I understand you at that point.
But if a person was forced to go to heaven, it wouldn't automatically mean he would be happy there. Eternity with somebody he didn't want to know (God)? In turn if God forced this person to love Him and be happy in connection with God's presence, then He would be the biggest egomaniac. That would be extremely artificial love and artificial happiness.
I'm right with you in your argument on free choice. . .until you insist that the alternative is some form of hell. There, the argument for a loving God collapses upon itself as johnny as aptly pointed out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
I want to believe that the traditional hell exists. This way evil people like Hitler, Pol Pot, and that Austrian father who locked his daughter up in a cellar and raped her for 24 years go there to be tortured.

But the way I see it, there is a human soul and you are in charge of it. I believe if you nourish your soul enough and bring it to life and close to God, you'll be with God in the end. If you don't take care of your soul, you'll cease to exist when you die.

That is how I make sense out of the thought of loving God sending people to eternal hell. I think people send themselves to hell. If it does exist, that's where you go if you don't take care of yourself.
Doesn't God overseeing the torture of Hitler, Pol Pot etc, reduce Him to pretty much their level?

I don't see how anyone would choose an eternity of torment. I think those that choose not to be with God would rather not exist at all then live torment. The concept of choosing oblivion (as a ceasing of existence) at least has some corrolation to the human experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnytakeawalk View Post
If God is love and compassion and all things good in the world then who would not be happy in this company? Murderers you said. Right, fair enough perhaps but everyday human beings that aren't psychopaths need love and they need God whether they know it or not. Sending them to hell for eternity is not the nature of a loving God. They did not send themselves there. No normal person would choose an eternity without love.
I think it's foolish to speculate on the ratio of saved to lost. Scriptures say that God does not anyone to be lost, and quotes by Jesus regarding the "broad" and "narrow" do not have to suggest that most everyone will be lost. (Sorry about the saved/lost jargon. I'm pretyt under the weather right now and too lazy not to use the Christianese).
__________________

__________________
maycocksean is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com