Do you believe in hell?

[PhilsFan]

Jesus, for starters.

I suppose.

I just hear people thanking God for things happening and it makes me shake my head. Yes, God intervened in your life but let thousands of people die in natural disasters.

I can't understand the belief in an intervening God, whereas I can understand a lot of beliefs in religion. That one just makes no sense to me.

 

[Irvine511]

because I have found myself on its pages -- both who I am and who I hope to be.

we are all products of our respective culture(s). and being raised how you were, where you were, and by who you were, it seems to me that this was always very likely to happen. yes? this is an experience that might be very true to you, but as an anecdote, how much stock can we put in this? and as you put it, you already believed something, so this seems more self-fulfilling prophecy than anything else.

this makes it neither "true" nor "not true," but puts it more into the category of "vanilla is my favorite flavor," in the sense that i could never convince you that vanilla isn't your favorite flavor.

 

[nathan1977]

we are all products of our respective culture(s). and being raised how you were, where you were, and by who you were, it seems to me that this was always very likely to happen. yes?

Not really. My sister's gone in the complete opposite direction. So environmental factors, while important, don't always lead to the same outcomes.

When I say that I see myself in the pages of the Scriptures, I mean that its story of humanity resonates with me. The people in the stories of the Bible aren't terribly different from what I see today (wars and rumors of wars, corruption, hope amidst despair, etc), and the cries of David in the Psalms aren't very different from my prayers.

this is an experience that might be very true to you, but as an anecdote, how much stock can we put in this?

I don't know. If enough people agree that the sky is blue, doesn't that mean something?

And I've always been more of a chocolate chip man.

 

[nathan1977]

I just hear people thanking God for things happening and it makes me shake my head.

I think there are two ways to approach gratitude. One (unfortunately mirrored in the West) is a self-serving attitude that believes the fortunate deserve the good that has happened to them in some way, and that looks down on all those who aren't as "blessed," which easily turns into some notion that God was/is obligated to help them because they found "the secret" or "the prayer of Jabez" or whatever, and now they've figured out how to get God to do what they want.

The other is to humbly recognize blessings because you know they don't happen all the time, to receive them with gratitude, and to respond with empathy and generosity towards those around you. I'm convinced that blessings aren't meant for us, but for those around us. Those praying for expensive cars and bigger houses are living in a world that is too small.

 

[PhilsFan]

I agree with that. One of my closest friends prays for his family and friends every night before he goes to sleep. I have no issue with that at all.

 

[Irvine511]

Not really. My sister's gone in the complete opposite direction. So environmental factors, while important, don't always lead to the same outcomes.

but, really, doesn't that make sense as well? lots and lots of kids raised religiously become the total opposite as adults, but they're still within that paradigm. this doesn't make anyone right or wrong, it just acknowledges the context.

When I say that I see myself in the pages of the Scriptures, I mean that its story of humanity resonates with me. The people in the stories of the Bible aren't terribly different from what I see today (wars and rumors of wars, corruption, hope amidst despair, etc), and the cries of David in the Psalms aren't very different from my prayers.

but you want it to fit, don't you? not that it doesn't fit, but you have a pretty invested interest in making it work? kind of like Bono's lyrics? pretty elastic and easy to make multiple meanings (is "one" about AIDS, Berlin, the band, a relationship, etc.) and especially with a text that has 2,000 years of historical weight behind it.

I don't know. If enough people agree that the sky is blue, doesn't that mean something?

or is death scary enough (and universal enough) that lots of people are scrambling for their "get out of Hell free!" card?

on a more serious note, obviously lots of people agree on the importance of religion, in a general sense, and "belief" in the broad sense is fairly universal. so, yes, that does mean something, though i think it says something more about us than about the universe.

And I've always been more of a chocolate chip man.

i'm quite polyamorous with ice cream. different flavor every time.

 

[nathan1977]

but you want it to fit, don't you? not that it doesn't fit, but you have a pretty invested interest in making it work?

I'm kind of amused by your perspective on believers. Perhaps it's your own agnosticism/atheism at play -- and, to be fair, you've never been terribly antagonistic of people of faith, the way other people are in FYM -- but you've intimated in the past that you seem to think that believers are these people who are fueled by fear, whether of the unknown or Hell or of questions they'd prefer not to ask. The reasons I believe are many and varied, but none of them have to do with banging a square peg (real life) into a round hole (faith tradition). I'd like to think that my faith is thoughtful, reasoned and reflective, and not incompatible with the world as it is.

To return to the subject of the thread, for example -- my faith is expansive enough to incorporate both the concept of Hell and a loving God. Perhaps not the Hell of the 1700 Puritans, but then, I don't think they got it quite right either. Part of that comes from the fact that I enjoy studying the Scriptures myself, part of that is because I like listening to other teachers (both those I agree with and those I don't), part of that is because I (like to think I) pay attention to the world around me. As C.S. Lewis said, "I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else."

As a result, I don't find the Christian faith incongruous to my life experience, though I can understand why others do. Particularly those who have been on the sharp end of the Christian stick. It's probably why FYM is a place I enjoy hanging out -- contributing to discussions, learning from others, and genuinely trying to engage with people who see the world differently than I do. FYM is, I suppose, a way for me to test my faith, and I've yet to find something that doesn't fit.

 

[jonnytakeawalk]

but you've intimated in the past that you seem to think that believers are these people who are fueled by fear, whether of the unknown or Hell or of questions they'd prefer not to ask.

I've said it before but not believing in God can also be incredibly comforting. No judgement, no Hell and a lot of people are happy with death just being the end. You guys were saying before that the thought of exisiting for an eternity would be in a lot of ways terrifying. I think there are a lot of people 'fueled by fear' that have turned to Atheism as well for these reasons.

 

[the iron horse]

I've said it before but not believing in God can also be incredibly comforting. No judgement, no Hell and a lot of people are happy with death just being the end. You guys were saying before that the thought of exisiting for an eternity would be in a lot of ways terrifying. I think there are a lot of people 'fueled by fear' that have turned to Atheism as well for these reasons.

~elevation

 

[diamond]

If so how do you invision it? Is it a place of eternal torture and fire- wheeping and gnashing of teeth and the rest? Do you consider it to be a physical place or a state of existence?

This is how Hell was explained to one Christian Prophet through a revelation he received:

I am Alpha and Omega, Christ the Lord; yea, even I am he, the beginning and the end, the Redeemer of the world....

Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be 'no end to this torment', but it is written "endless torment".

Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.

For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—

Eternal punishment .is God’s punishment

Endless punishment is God’s punishment


So, Hell exists but only a finite time until a person pays for what they did, unless they repent before dying, God is a fair God, just and merciful with perfect equilibrium.

<>

 

[jonnytakeawalk]

So, Hell exists but only a finite time until a person pays for what they did, unless they repent before dying, God is a fair God, just and merciful with perfect equilibrium.

<>

and then after that what happens?

 

[mama cass]

This is how Hell was explained to one Christian Prophet through a revelation he received:

I am Alpha and Omega, Christ the Lord; yea, even I am he, the beginning and the end, the Redeemer of the world....

Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be 'no end to this torment', but it is written "endless torment".

Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.

For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—

Eternal punishment .is God’s punishment

Endless punishment is God’s punishment


So, Hell exists but only a finite time until a person pays for what they did, unless they repent before dying, God is a fair God, just and merciful with perfect equilibrium.

<>

ok... i'm sure i must be missing something... but how does "endless" and "eternal" = "finite"?

your reasoning eludes me...

oh and which "Christian Prophet" are you quoting?

 

[yolland]

^ It's from the Book of Mormon

There is a common Hebrew word (olam) which is often--inappropriately--translated as "eternal" in various Bible editions, though that's probably neither here nor there in this case.

 

[diamond]

ok... i'm sure i must be missing something... but how does "endless" and "eternal" = "finite"?

your reasoning eludes me...

oh and which "Christian Prophet" are you quoting?

It doesn't and that's the point, reread it.

Joseph Smith.

<>

 

[diamond]

and then after that what happens?

You then go to a kingdom, mansion or heaven prepared for you.

<>

 

[diamond]

^ It's from the Book of Mormon

There is a common Hebrew word (olam) which is often--inappropriately--translated as "eternal" in various Bible editions, though that's probably neither here nor there in this case.

Close.

Actually: Doctrine and Covenants.

<>

 

[yolland]

Ah, okay. I'd just Googled a phrase from it and typed whatever the first thing that came up said. Not a sound method.

What text is it referring to when it says "...it is written 'endless torment'?"

 

[diamond]

Ah, okay. I'd just Googled a phrase from it and typed whatever the first thing that came up said. Not a sound method.

What text is it referring to when it says "...it is written 'endless torment'?"

Endless torment is actually a term in the Book of Mormon, a book that Joseph had translated recently. In the New Testament it's known as: "fire and brimstone".

However, as we already know and more to the point: mainline Christianity teach's one burns in hell endlessly-eternally etc.

But hear God teaches Joseph a new truth and clarifies the matter by telling Joseph that his name is "Endless and Eternal" and these names are actually only different titles or names of Him.

One shouldn't think that it won't feel excruciatingly painful for those that take this route though, because here's what else God told Joseph about those that wind up in that place for a while:

But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

<>

 

[jonnytakeawalk]

How would you respond to a Christian who suggests that most people do intrinsically believe that there are eternal ramifications for their actions (hell) and likens it to people having a knowledge of the link between smoking and cancer but still in despite of this continue to smoke?

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

I was browsing through, and read about how God doesn't intervene in genocides around the world. What exactly can God do to stop a genocide?

 

[BVS]

I was browsing through, and read about how God doesn't intervene in genocides around the world. What exactly can God do to stop a genocide?

What do you mean?

Many preach that God is all powerful and can do anything... do you not believe this?

If you take the OT literally he used floods to wipe away most of humanity, so ending a genocide should be easy.

 

[diamond]

How would you respond to a Christian who suggests that most people do intrinsically believe that there are eternal ramifications for their actions (hell) and likens it to people having a knowledge of the link between smoking and cancer but still in despite of this continue to smoke?

I would agree w that statement. We all have a built in spiritual barometer built inside of us.

I would also add that there are many different degrees of glory in heaven and once a unrepentant person is shown what he could of done on earth differently, when he constantly chose to ignore his conscience or God's prompts while here on earth-he will go to a lesser kingdom than the obedient and repentant person, who followed God's promptings on earth.

So the key is to do things right while here.



<>

 

[nathan1977]

What do you mean?

Many preach that God is all powerful and can do anything... do you not believe this?

If you take the OT literally he used floods to wipe away most of humanity, so ending a genocide should be easy.

Again, this goes back to the whole notion of free will. There are certain things that God has chosen not do -- one is staying the hand of man.

 

[BVS]

I understand that, I was just trying to understand what Pac Mule was asking.

 

[jonnytakeawalk]

I would agree w that statement. We all have a built in spiritual barometer built inside of us.

I would also add that there are many different degrees of glory in heaven and once a unrepentant person is shown what he could of done on earth differently, when he constantly chose to ignore his conscience or God's prompts while here on earth-he will go to a lesser kingdom than the obedient and repentant person, who followed God's promptings on earth.

So the key is to do things right while here.



<>

I guess the reason I still don't really understand the analogy is the fact that the links between smoking and lung cancer are backed up by tangible evidence- there are medical statistics to support the claims. There is no tangible evidence to support the link between unrepentant sin and eternal hell outside of what's written in the Bible.

 

[diamond]

If all things were tangible there would no room for faith development.

<>

 

[jonnytakeawalk]

If all things were tangible there would no room for faith development.

<>

That doesn't mean you can go about comparing your own faith to universal facts supported by evidence.

 

[TheEdge_92]

My true believeing is, Hell is the world we live in now!

 

[yolland]

That doesn't mean you can go about comparing your own faith to universal facts supported by evidence.

Also, no one lives with lung cancer for eternity, and people who are cavalier about death are able to be so because death is a certainty, for everyone.

If you take the OT literally he used floods to wipe away most of humanity

Not only that, but for the ancient Hebrews, who didn't think in terms of eternal rewards or punishments, devastating military defeats could themselves be punishments from God, who 'raises the hand of your enemy against you' or 'delivers you into the hands of your enemies' in retribution for your collective misdeeds.

 

[Irvine511]

I would also add that there are many different degrees of glory in heaven and once a unrepentant person is shown what he could of done on earth differently, when he constantly chose to ignore his conscience or God's prompts while here on earth-he will go to a lesser kingdom than the obedient and repentant person, who followed God's promptings on earth.

look, i understand there are different faith traditions and people choose to believe different texts, but can you also understand how someone would look at what you just wrote and think that it's preposterous and totally made up? like, one thing we know is that no one knows what happens when we die. we can assume, make inferences, speculate, whatever. but the specificity and certitude on display make me less likely to take it seriously and more likely to think that it's totally preposterous and totally made up.

and this isn't specific to you, i promise. i think this applies to any and all faith traditions when their adherents appear to think they have all the answers. faith has to be rooted in doubt, otherwise it's delusion, and the most powerful thing to me is when we acknowledge that we don't know things, that we try to glean truth for ourselves from complex material rather than pretending we know truth for everyone else.

i don't mean this as a criticism of you specifically, i'm just using this as a jumping off point. it applies to everyone.