Do you believe in hell?

[Vincent Vega]

I guess those "new atheists" (whatever that is) are forming their own religion then.

I view discussing religion a bit like discussing music. I love U2 to hell, but I don't discuss it. I will talk about it, I might even show clips if someone asks me to, but I won't tell them "You have to watch this!" nor am I getting into a debate with anyone who doesn't like their music. I don't understand them, but I guess that goes vice versa.
Like this Bostonian guy at the music quiz I attended who started with "And now the most childish band ever" and played One. I met him several times after and didn't feel the need to talk to him. If I did, I would not care the least bit to discuss U2 with him.

 

[80sU2isBest]

So, yes, you believe that people who do not believe in Christ are going to hell, no matter how virtuous they are?

I believe that works and a virtuous life is not what saves a person.

You are oversimplifying what I said.

My belief is that truly virtuous people will not go to hell because they will accept Christ at some point.

 

[Pearl]

The first person I focused on as far as salvation was myself. I decided to do something about it and put my faith in Christ. Now that's done. According to the Bible, those who put their faith in Christ will spend eternity in Heaven. My faith is in Christ, so according to the Bible I am going to Heaven.

Now my focus is on spreading the Gospel so that others can go to Heaven.

If I got saved and then didn't tell a soul how they could get saved, that wouldn't be love at all.

I don't know if you were referring to me, of it were just a general statement. But I don't cast stones. T don't bring up anyone's personal sins. I have no right to. The Bible even tells me that it is not my right to judge the world. I bring up sin on a global level - ie: we have all sinned. And I do that not to judge people for committing sins; I commit sins as well. I bring that up to try to show people that we all need a Savior.

Well, I believe it takes more than just faith to get to the pearly gates. I also don't believe the Bible is absolute word of God, so I don't see how we can discuss the afterlife here.

 

[anitram]

I don't believe in hell.

Truth is, I have no idea what comes after death and I don't believe that anyone else out there has any idea either. This used to bother me a lot when I was younger - where did grandma go, what happened to my beloved dog, etc. But now, I don't find it to be a pressing matter in my life. I try to be a good person and live as happily as possible. If there is nothing after this, fine. If there is something, well we'll be sorted out at that point.

All this back and forth on this thread doesn't bother me to be honest. The faithful can believe what they want. The only thing that I ask of them is that once I assert that I don't believe that I am "lost" or "hungry" or whatever metaphor they are using at the moment, they should respect that and walk away. I believe that they have no idea as to what happens after this life, much like I don't, and so there is no basis on which they could convert me anyway.

 

[Pearl]

I believe that works and a virtuous life is not what saves a person.

You are oversimplifying what I said.

My belief is that truly virtuous people will not go to hell because they will accept Christ at some point.

So, if someone believes firmly that Jesus is the Messiah, accepts the Holy Spirit, but sits around and does not help the needy and/or is not virtuous is going to Heaven?

This type of belief drives people away from Christianity.

 

[PhilsFan]

My belief is that truly virtuous people will not go to hell because they will accept Christ at some point.

Wow, that is condescending. You are literally saying there are no truly virtuous non-believers.

 

[jonnytakeawalk]

Wow, that is condescending. You are literally saying there are no truly virtuous non-believers.

I don't think that is what he was saying at all.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Wow, that is condescending. You are literally saying there are no truly virtuous non-believers.

No, that's not what I'm saying. And I think you know that.

 

[PhilsFan]

How is it not? You're saying truly virtuous people are the ones who accept Christ, in your view.

 

[Vincent Vega]

Maybe it's to do with the word in the languages. If I translate it into German, the German equivalent is perfectly neutral to religion. So for me it would also sound a bit questionable, if someone said a truly tugendhaft (virtuous) person is going to accept Christ. Maybe you could elaborate on that, 80s?

 

[PhilsFan]

Virtue just means good.

 

[yolland]

If being 'truly virtuous' is not what saves Christians, and Christians (as 80s suggested earlier) aren't particularly better (meaning, presumably, more virtuous) than other people, than I don't understand why 'truly virtuous' non-Christians should be especially well-placed to get the message, so to speak. That seems to be saying they're more worthy of being saved, which appears contradictory.

 

[Vincent Vega]

Yeah, Tugend is also a positive characteristic of a person. Being tugendhaft means to heed these good, positive characteristics. Like the famous German virtues, such as being punctual, reliable and aiming for perfection. So I would feel funny if someone told me that because of this I will accept Christ at some point in my life. The inversion of the argument, to me, would be, if I never accept Christ I cannot possibly have been virtuous. So that's why I think it needs elaboration.

 

[mama cass]

i've pretty much just gone ahead and said this. because i've seen "faith" destroy families and friendships.

me too, my own family (parents and siblings) included, and, yes, it is truly horrendous

 

[80sU2isBest]

How is it not? You're saying truly virtuous people are the ones who accept Christ, in your view.

I never said that "truly virtuous people are "the ones who accept Christ". A lot of nonvirtuous people accept Christ as Savior. You don't have to be virtuous to come to Christ.

 

[Vincent Vega]

I never said that "truly virtuous people are "the ones who accept Christ". A lot of nonvirtuous people accept Christ as Savior. You don't have to be virtuous to come to Christ.

But you put it like it's an inevitable result of being virtuous, that eventually they will accept Christ.

My belief is that truly virtuous people will not go to hell because they will accept Christ at some point.

Why will truly virtuous people accept Christ at some point? And if a person does not accept Christ at some point, has he not been truly virtuous?

 

[80sU2isBest]

Wow, that is condescending. You are literally saying there are no truly virtuous non-believers.

That accusation honestly doesn't make any sense in the context of what I wrote.

I wrote:
I believe that every single person who lives a virtuous life for virtuosity's sake itself will at some point come to meet Christ and will put his faith in Christ

If I were saying that only Christians are virtuous, I would have written it like this, which makes no sense whatsoever.

I believe that every single person who lives a virtuous life for virtuosity's sake itself is a Christian and will at some point come to meet Christ and will put his faith in Christ

Look at the words "will at some point ... put his faith in Christ". If I believed that only Christians are virtuous, why would I write that these virtuous Christians will one day come to accept Christ? If they're Christians, they've already accepted Christ.

Do you understand now that I am saying that my belief is that truly virtuous nonChristians will at some point accept Christ?

 

[mama cass]

Do you understand now that I am saying that my belief is that truly virtuous nonChristians will at some point accept Christ?

thereby becoming Christians, no?

 

[Vincent Vega]

In the here or afterlife?

 

[80sU2isBest]

But you put it like it's an inevitable result of being virtuous, that eventually they will accept Christ.

Why will truly virtuous people accept Christ at some point?

Thank you for asking. I will explain why in detail. But first, I'll say this:

I am not sure of this belief, like I am of the things that are explicitly stated in the Bible. On this thing, I will definitely state "my opinion".

Now, moving on to the explanation:

I partially base this belief on verses like these:

"You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13)

and

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you." (Matthew 7:7)

I believe that a truly virtuous life is a form of seeking truth. And since I believe that all who seek truth will find Truth, I believe that all who are sincerely virtuous will find God and Truth.

Actually Vince, you've made me consider something about my beliefs. I'm glad you posed the question to me, to help me see that I need to rethink it.

After further consideration, I amend this belief.

I do not believe that is an inevitability that all who live virtuous lives will one day accept Christ.

I do believe, however, that those who live sincerely virtuous lives are in effect seeking truth in life, and according to the Bible, those who seek will find. If they accept Christ is up to their free will.

Thank you.

 

[Irvine511]

Do you understand now that I am saying that my belief is that truly virtuous nonChristians will at some point accept Christ?

do you think Ghandi accepted Christ?

 

[80sU2isBest]

thereby becoming Christians, no?

Yes, when a person accepts Christ, he becomes a Christian.

I was a "virtuous" person before I became a Christian. I was caring, thoughtful and moral. But I wasn't perfect. And no one is.

 

[80sU2isBest]

do you think Ghandi accepted Christ?

If I had read that question before Vince's "inevitability" question caused me to rethink my belief, I would have said Yes, I think he did.

But now all I can say is that I can't say with any certainty at all where Ghandi spends eternity.

I do believe that at some point before he died, he found Truth, if indeed he sought it, as most people think he did. And when he found Truth, he certainly had the opportunity to accept it or reject it.

I believe there is a high possibility that he did accept Christ, and that I will one day see Ghandi in heaven. It would greatly please me.

 

[Vincent Vega]

Thank you for asking. I will explain why in detail. But first, I'll say this:

I am not sure of this belief, like I am of the things that are explicitly stated in the Bible. On this thing, I will definitely state "my opinion".

Now, moving on to the explanation:

I partially base this belief on verses like these:

"You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13)

and

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you." (Matthew 7:7)

I believe that a truly virtuous life is a form of seeking truth. And since I believe that all who seek truth will find Truth, I believe that all who are sincerely virtuous will find God and Truth.

Actually Vince, you've made me consider something about my beliefs. I'm glad you posed the question to me, to help me see that I need to rethink it.

After further consideration, I amend this belief.

I do not believe that is an inevitability that all who live virtuous lives will one day accept Christ.

I do believe, however, that those who live sincerely virtuous lives are in effect seeking truth in life, and according to the Bible, those who seek will find. If they accept Christ is up to their free will.

Thank you.

Thanks for clarifying, and I'm glad I could maybe shed some more light on this topic even for yourself.
I also think most people are seeking some truth, some more actively, others more passively. And many people are very virtuous. But I do not think that for all people the truth, or the result of their virtuosity, will be Christianity, or Christ. I do belief a Muslim can be very virtuous, in fact, Muslims can be very virtuous, and in the end the truth for them may be Mohammed. Same goes for Jews, and their truth is again not Christ. Especially this will be the truth for all who do not even know Christianity exists, even though their number is getting smaller by the day. And same goes, of course, for us atheists.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Okay guys, I'm out of here for a few days. I work for myself and did not manage my time effectively because I was so engrossed in this stimulating conversation. I need to get some work done, so I will be back next week. I just wanted to tell you beforehand, because I didn't want anyone to think they were being ignored.

 

[mama cass]

Yes, when a person accepts Christ, he becomes a Christian.

yes i am aware of that, but, you see, you're clearly contradicting yourself...

 

[Irvine511]

If I had read that question before Vince's "inevitability" question caused me to rethink my belief, I would have said Yes, I think he did.

But now all I can say is that I can't say with any certainty at all where Ghandi spends eternity.

I do believe that at some point before he died, he found Truth, if indeed he sought it, as most people think he did. And when he found Truth, he certainly had the opportunity to accept it or reject it.

I believe there is a high possibility that he did accept Christ, and that I will one day see Ghandi in heaven. It would greatly please me.

all i can say is that i cannot relate to this. it doesn't make any sense to me at all, and it seems amazing to me that you could think that you are right and the rest of the world is wrong, or that the rest of this big, complex, amazing world filled with equally complex, amazing people will come to see that you are right (not that you are a better person, but that your beliefs are accurate, maybe that's a better way to say it) in some moment of revelatory truth before they die.

that just doesn't reconcile with reality as i understand it.

 

[maycocksean]

Your entire post works only under the assumption that the bridge is out.

Whether the bridge is out or not is irrelevant to my post. My point was what the two people in question believe about the bridge. My purpose was not to argue about whether the driver is ACTUALLY in mortal danger, but to point out the perspective of you who believes the bridge is out.

What if I said that I truly believed you guys needed to be "saved" from your religious leaders, and that I was doing it only because I have the knowledge about it and need to inform you, purely because I'm looking out for you guys?

I wouldn't be bothered in the slightest. There are a number of posters that "know" with certainty that my beliefs are irrational, silly, and that my insistence upon believing them is foolish and perhaps even harmful. That's far worse than anything 80's has implied about those who are not believers, and yet, I don't take issue with people who feel that way. From my perspective, their view is just an opinion to which they are entitled. I take no offense, nor do I feel I need to.

Wow, that is condescending. You are literally saying there are no truly virtuous non-believers.

No. He believes that all good ultimately resides with God in Christ. Therefore those who respond to Good, Truth, Love, whatever you want to call it, or responding to Christ whether they know it or not. It's condescending only in the sense that he believes that all goodness and virtue have one ultimate Source. It is the presence of Christ in someones life (whether recognized or not) that make someone virtuous. Of course no one is perfect, but that's where Christ's sacrifice covers us all, whether Christian or not. I don't know if I would go as far as 80s in assuming that everyone would eventually "become a Christian" but besides that point, I essentially agree with him.

Why will truly virtuous people accept Christ at some point? And if a person does not accept Christ at some point, has he not been truly virtuous?

In response to your first question, see above. In response to your second question, I don't think that 80's understanding (which, incidentally he maintains is merely his opinion) allows for such an option. For someone to be truly virtuous and yet reject the source of all virtue is an impossibility.

To be frank, I don't think 80's is pushing to convert anyone on this thread. I do think he would like to be correctly understood (even if in correctly understanding him,you still conclude he's wrong).

 

[Irvine511]

There are a number of posters that "know" with certainty that my beliefs are irrational, silly, and that my insistence upon believing them is foolish and perhaps even harmful. That's far worse than anything 80's has implied about those who are not believers

really? he's implied that we will either have a conversion experience, like him, or go to hell. that does seem much worse than anything i've said about religious beliefs potentially being sources of emotional abuse.

To be frank, I don't think 80's is pushing to convert anyone on this thread. I do think he would like to be correctly understood (even if in correctly understanding him,you still conclude he's wrong).

on this i agree. absolutely. he has not tried to convert, just to explain, but i think that he's been more than met halfway.

 

[PhilsFan]

Do you understand now that I am saying that my belief is that truly virtuous nonChristians will at some point accept Christ?

So, are you saying you don't think there are any virtuous people who have never accepted Christ?

I'm still not seeing where I misinterpreted you. At all.