Do you believe in hell?

The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
I also believe that those who have lived their being kind and good (for no ulterior motives) will discover at some point before they die that Christ is the author of righteousness. They will have the free will to accept or deny Christ, but I can't imagine that that kind of person would deny Him, knowing that He is truth. For this idea, I have no specific Biblical proof; it is a strongly held conviction based on my knowledge of the nature of God.
"Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?"

I think that the Euthyphro dilemma excludes the possibility of any author of righteousness. I haven't seen a persuasive and logical solution to it in my reading and I don't think I would take it on faith if I was presented with the situation described above.

That the coercive threat of hell sits alongside "choose life" is a very good indicator that such an entity isn't a fount of morality.

There really is a fundamental disconnect between how people understand the universe which I find more frightening than most visions of hell. That you think that it's acceptable for decent nonbelievers to be cast into hellfire because they didn't abandon their principles before their death is quite grotesque. If you take a humanitarian who does good in the world I don't think their being religious or doing it for religious reasons would totally nullify the good. You seem to believe in an impassable moral dichotomy that relies on accepting your faiths claims.

You don't seem to be a nasty person, but what you are saying strikes me as vile.
 
The carcass of the pig, not, like, a pigskin football. The same word is also used of human corpses. Hide is distinct from flesh in Hebrew.

Not to stay off topic but this one interest me. But in order to get the hide one has to handle the corpse so isn't that "dirty" as well?

Now obviously my football example was extreme but I've had Jewish friends tell me that any touching of pig product was against the very fundamental follower's religion. Is that not true?

And that some do have seperate beds for times of menstruation?
 
It wouldn't matter if it was a choice. There is as much intrinsic harm in homosexuality as in heterosexuality.
I understand that, but many don't think that way. And it's hard to prove as fact to people who don't want to hear it, where as it is a fact that homosexuality is innate.

Picking from good arguments of course. I could go on forever. I'd like to see people like flybabe address this before they go off about all of the gay mistakes going on by being gay.
 
I don't like appeals to nature for ethical judgements. Just because nature makes people attracted to the same sex doesn't make it right for them to act on those feelings (there are plenty of valid arguments for acting on them). By the same token it's ridiculous for people to declare homosexuality wrong because it's unnatural (even granting the premise which is false).
 
It's one more thing for them to have to get around in making the argument, for my money. I mean, the end goal is to make every person who (incorrectly) thinks homosexuality is a sin realize that they're wrong, isn't it?
 
well, really, the idea that it's a "choice" or a "sin" is meant for the ears of the person who is doing the discriminating, as it helps them justify and explain their prejudice to themselves and absolve them of responsibility for being discriminatory because, as it goes, they didn't make up the rules, God did. as a gay person, being told that it's a "choice" or a "sin" really doesn't change much of anything, it's not like anyone is shining a light on something that i've never thought of before. they're not saying it out of compassion for a gay person, they're saying it to themselves and for themselves.

notions of "hell" work this way too. you tell yourself you just want to help other people avoid hell, so that's why you preach at them, but really, all your preaching does is make you feel better about yourself. Phillip Roth called it "the ecstasy of sanctimony."
 
Not sure if this is place for this post, but since we're discussing a religious topic here...

Religion will all but vanish eventually from nine Western-style democracies, a team of mathematicians predict in a new paper based on census data stretching back 100 years.
It won't die out completely, but "religion will be driven toward extinction" in countries including Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the Netherlands, they say.
The mathematicians say it will also wither away in Austria, the Czech Republic, Finland and Switzerland.
They can't make a prediction about the United States because the U.S. census doesn't ask about religion, lead author Daniel Abrams told CNN.


Studies suggest that "unaffiliated" is the fastest-growing religious group in the United States, with about 15% of the population falling into a category experts call the "nones."
They're not necessarily atheists or non-believers, experts say, just people who do not associate themselves with a particular religion or house of worship at the time of the survey
Organized religion 'will be driven toward extinction' in 9 countries, experts predict – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs
 
notions of "hell" work this way too. you tell yourself you just want to help other people avoid hell, so that's why you preach at them, but really, all your preaching does is make you feel better about yourself.

That is not only a sweeping generalization, but also a gross mischaracterization of the evangelical motivations.

And it certainly isn't the motivation for me. I have a sincere and heartfelt love for the lost. In an earlier post, I shared that the idea of hell for the lost sent me into a 7 month depression. I can tell you with not even .000000001% of doubt in my mind that the reason I share the Gospel is that I want people to go to Heaven and avoid hell.

If you want, I can name many many others who I know very well and know for a fact that they share the Gospel completely motivated by their love for the lost, starting with my brother, my mother and my pastor, the three most selfless people I know.

When I share the Gospel, I don't "think better about myself". I don't save anyone. The Holy Spirit convicts man, who makes a choice. I am privileged to carry his message, but he doesn't need me.
 
notions of "hell" work this way too. you tell yourself you just want to help other people avoid hell, so that's why you preach at them, but really, all your preaching does is make you feel better about yourself. Phillip Roth called it "the ecstasy of sanctimony."

This I don't entirely agree with. If you talk to anyone who's gone through any sort of recovery program that has worked for them, you'll find them to be very effective advocates of that particular program. Their excitement generally stems from the fact that they were in a type of hell before, and they've found something to get them out. When the blinders come off, whatever they may be, there tends to be an ecstatic, "you have to try this" mentality.

Believe me, I have no illusions about people like the Phelps family, or people who force their religion on other people because they're militant or ignorant or whatever. Those people are fueled by self-righteousness and hate (and, usually, not a little self-loathing.) But I do think there is also room for those who have experienced a life-changing relationship with Christ to tell others about what they did to get there. And I think those people's motives are pure -- misguided for some, but pure.
 
How do you think this would occur for those who have (or had) absolutely no idea even of the existence of Christ/Christianity?

Well, first I'll say that I don't know for sure the exact methods by which he gets this done.

There were some missionaries that went to live with a tribe that had never heard the name Jesus. These missionaries worked alongside them, helped them in their community. When they shared the Gospel, the tribe chief said something to the effect of "This Gospel sounds exactly like our beliefs, but we never knew the name Jesus".

Here's another possible method. Revelation 14:6-7 tells us that a specific angel preaches the Gospel to the entire world:

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

That instance is specifically about the end times, but I don't know why this would necessarily only occur at the end. This angel could be doing this at all times - special revelation and all that.

Of course, that's just a speculation on my part, on how it could work.
It all boils down to this for me: 2 Peter 3:9 tells us that God wants all to come to repentance. Since he wants everyone to be saved, he will provide opportunity. God doesn't need man's voice to get the Gospel spread. As I said in an earlier post, the Holy Spirit moves in mysterious ways when it comes to revealing the truth to people. God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. God is quite capable of getting his message across to people who have never even heard the name "Jesus Christ" or to people who have been raised in different religions. Be it by "supernatural revelation" at some point during their life or on their deathbed, or just an "inner knowing", or whatever, he is certainly capable of doing it.
 
That is not only a sweeping generalization, but also a gross mischaracterization of the evangelical motivations.
[...]

When I share the Gospel, I don't "think better about myself". I don't save anyone. The Holy Spirit convicts man, who makes a choice. I am privileged to carry his message, but he doesn't need me.


i agree, it was a generalization, and perhaps you have to step out of the paradigm of being a believer to see how your message is coming across -- you think you know better than everyone else. you're just the messenger, of course, and man is left up to his own devices, but if they'd just listen to you The Holy Spirit they'd then be as enlightened as you.

i have no doubt that your intentions are sincere, but the structure under which you are operating is incredibly patronizing and self-righteous.

just look at your language. there's you, and then there's "the lost."




This I don't entirely agree with. If you talk to anyone who's gone through any sort of recovery program that has worked for them, you'll find them to be very effective advocates of that particular program. Their excitement generally stems from the fact that they were in a type of hell before, and they've found something to get them out. When the blinders come off, whatever they may be, there tends to be an ecstatic, "you have to try this" mentality.


oh, i fully agree that, many times, religious conviction is a form of addiction and functions like any other kind of addiction, and it's no secret that many people kick the drugs, the alcohol, and become addicted to religion. there are absolutely parallels between drugs and religion.


But I do think there is also room for those who have experienced a life-changing relationship with Christ to tell others about what they did to get there. And I think those people's motives are pure -- misguided for some, but pure.


but i'm not asking for your help, nor do i need it. and much of what you (the collective you) have to say is not only contradictory to my experience, but it's actually repulsive, and it's even worse when you say, "oh, but i'm just the messenger, i didn't make this stuff up, if you have a problem with it talk to God, not me."

i was probably something of a U2 evangelical in high school and college. i'd buy people copies of Achtung or Joshua Tree and press it into their hands and say, "listen, it will change your life." or something to that effect.

turns out, i was probably just really annoying and people can make up their own minds about what music they want to listen to.
 

I think that the Euthyphro dilemma excludes the possibility of any author of righteousness. I haven't seen a persuasive and logical solution to it in my reading and I don't think I would take it on faith if I was presented with the situation described above.


You don't believe in God. Why do you need some Euthywhatever Dilemma to cause you to believe that righteousness has no author? If there is no God, of course righteousness has no author.

That you think that it's acceptable for decent nonbelievers to be cast into hellfire because they didn't abandon their principles before their death is quite grotesque.


Did you read my posts in this thread? Your representation of my beliefs sure makes me think you didn't.

If you can show me where I said that nonbelievers are cast into hellfire for not abandoning their principles, I'll eat my computer this very moment.


If you take a humanitarian who does good in the world I don't think their being religious or doing it for religious reasons would totally nullify the good.


You really need to read my posts before you try to represent my beliefs.

I did not state nor do I believe that a nonbeliever's good deeds are nullified, or that they aren't worthwhile. I simply said that God is the author of righteousness.
 
i agree, it was a generalization, and perhaps you have to step out of the paradigm of being a believer to see how your message is coming across -- you think you know better than everyone else. you're just the messenger, of course, and man is left up to his own devices, but if they'd just listen to you The Holy Spirit they'd then be as enlightened as you.

i have no doubt that your intentions are sincere, but the structure under which you are operating is incredibly patronizing and self-righteous.

just look at your language. there's you, and then there's "the lost."
Without arguing, I will simply say that I know you misunderstand my intentions and my methods.
 
i agree, it was a generalization, and perhaps you have to step out of the paradigm of being a believer to see how your message is coming across -- you think you know better than everyone else.

Oh come on, Irvine. Everyone -- including many here on FYM -- thinks they know better than everyone else. Only the truly humble get past that.

i have no doubt that your intentions are sincere, but the structure under which you are operating is incredibly patronizing and self-righteous.

Pot, kettle, etc....

i was probably something of a U2 evangelical in high school and college. i'd buy people copies of Achtung or Joshua Tree and press it into their hands and say, "listen, it will change your life." or something to that effect.

Actually, I knew a similar kid in high school who was also a U2 evangelical. He was indeed the guy who got me into the band. I'm forever grateful. So I suppose it works, sometimes... Those who aren't interested can pass on by -- those who are interested, can decide for themselves.
 
Oh come on, Irvine. Everyone -- including many here on FYM -- thinks they know better than everyone else. Only the truly humble get past that.


but i don't pretend my opinion has cosmic, eternal ramifications. no one actually cares what i think.



Pot, kettle, etc....


i really haven't made any definitive claims about the afterlife in here, nor have i talked about a need to save other people or that there are people who need my help lest they be damned for eternity.

you could say that the methods of argumentation used by, say, myself and A_W are self-righteous and patronizing, but the message itself is not even comparable to the self-righteous and patronizing grand mystical narrative that dispenses reward and punishment on the basis of whether or not you agree with me.


Actually, I knew a similar kid in high school who was also a U2 evangelical. He was indeed the guy who got me into the band. I'm forever grateful. So I suppose it works, sometimes... Those who aren't interested can pass on by -- those who are interested, can decide for themselves.


pretty much, yes.
 
but i don't pretend my opinion has cosmic, eternal ramifications. no one actually cares what i think.

I was limiting my perspective to here within FYM, where a lot of people care what you think. (Myself included.)

i really haven't made any definitive claims about the afterlife in here

I was referring to the larger world of FYM as opposed to this thread. Sorry that wasn't clear; you're right. The tone for a large part of the discussion on this thread has been refreshingly civil, straightforward, and intellectual, which I've enjoyed. But the ship feels like it's starting to list a little, which means it may be time for me to jump out again.
 
i have no doubt that your intentions are sincere, but the structure under which you are operating is incredibly patronizing and self-righteous.

just look at your language. there's you, and then there's "the lost."
Exactly. This is what I hate. Religious people who think I just haven't "arrived" at an understanding of Jesus and that they're going to kindly and patiently deliver the message to people like me who are "lost" until the day I'm blessed with the knowledge of Christ and all the good he can bring into my life.

I'm sorry 80s, but simply saying "those are not my intentions" doesn't make it any less accurate in describing what you're saying. Maybe you aren't unconsciously looking down on me, but your rhetoric is, whether you want to think so or not. How else am I supposed to interpret it?
 
I'm sorry 80s, but simply saying "those are not my intentions" doesn't make it any less accurate in describing what you're saying. Maybe you aren't unconsciously looking down on me, but your rhetoric is, whether you want to think so or not. How else am I supposed to interpret it?

How are you supposed to interpret what?

Do you think I am portraying myself as "better than anyone"? I'm not. I have consistently said that all people sin and therefore all people need Christ. I have never said nor implied that Christians are better people than nonbelievers. I have consistently pointed to the grace of God as the reason I am saved, nothing that I have done.

You will take it however you want, but I am not calling you or anyone else inferior. Not only is that "not my intention"; I simply am not doing it.
 
Not to stay off topic but this one interest me. But in order to get the hide one has to handle the corpse so isn't that "dirty" as well?
An observant Jew wouldn't be the one skinning the pig, if that's what you mean. But handling and tanning the hide, the removed skin, that's fine, and products made with it are ritually neutral, except on Yom Kippur and Tisha B'Av when leather of any animal is avoided (though it's a rather arcane question, since for obvious reasons Jews haven't historically done much swineherding). It is NOT a question of pigs somehow being elementally vile, where anything and everything pertaining to them imparts (gasp! shudder!) spiritual cooties--pigs are, presumably, part of creation, and everything created was found good. It's a question of Jewish ritual law forbidding the eating of pigs' flesh (edible parts) and the handling of their carcasses--period.
Now obviously my football example was extreme but I've had Jewish friends tell me that any touching of pig product was against the very fundamental follower's religion. Is that not true?
The haredim? Well, clearly I don't know every Jew nor have I read every rabbinic opinion, but I did have a traditional Orthodox education and I've never heard of anything like that. For many years my family lived in southwest Brooklyn, which is Haredi Central USA, and I can tell you people there like their pigskin Hush Puppies loafers and oxfords as much as any other Americans. Footballs haven't actually been made of pigskin since long before our time, so that one's probably a moot point; nonetheless, I can confidently generalize that haredim do buy their kids standard-issue footballs from Wal-Mart without a thought. Now, I have occasionally heard of people asking their rabbi whether porcine insulin is kosher for diabetics in situations where alternatives are available (answer: yes, injections aren't eating), but never about touching pigskin--the answer there is really so obvious to anyone who knows Jewish law that it strains credulity to imagine an observant Jew, who presumably has some background in Jewish law, asking the question seriously. If there is some group, some subsect out there who actually practice this, then that would be a matter of minhag, custom, not halakha, law--along the lines of how certain Catholics bury statues of St. Joseph in their lawns when praying for help with household-related problems: OK, you can kinda, sorta see the relationship to official doctrine concerning St. Joseph's sphere of 'patronage' here, but no one familiar with canon law is going to take the idea that this is somehow actively prescribed seriously, even though they'd probably also say doing so is fine, so long as one understands it isn't required and why.
And that some do have seperate beds for times of menstruation?
Sure, and not just the haredim in this case--Modern Orthodox and many Conservative Jews also practice taharat hamishpachah, the ritual discipline of refraining from sexual intimacy during menstruation. It's the perception of its meaning which you were implicitly ascribing to them that I was objecting to. In halakha, the responsibility for observing this one explicitly devolves on women--you kick your husband out of your bed, not the other way around! But it's not really about that, either; halakhically the point is one of spiritual discipline--you periodically practice together the sublimation of our second strongest drive after hunger; the specific occasion is chukkim, fiat, logically arbitrary but accepted as ritually required. A Modern Orthodox or Conservative Jew might observe that, in origin, this practice has obvious similarities to menstrual taboos found in 'primitive' societies worldwide, the sense that this mysterious flow of 'blood' without harm or injury must be a divine doing, and that therefore it's spiritually dangerous to others for a woman in this potent state to participate in the rituals of ordinary community life (e.g. temple sacrifices)--or for anyone who has come into contact with her 'blood' to do so, either. Nonetheless, in rabbinic Judaism, whatever exactly our ancestors might or might not have perceived as 'justifying' this practice is considered beside the point for our own spiritual purposes. We follow ritual laws (or not) because of the spiritual value we find (or not) in observance for its own sake, not because we believe God finds pigs or menstrual fluid, like, seriously disgusting and shall smite you with unimaginable suffering should your actions suggest you disagree.



...Not to stay off topic, of course!
 
That, right there. Calling me the lost. Saying I'm lost because I haven't accepted Christ.

You may not mean to do it, but you're doing it.

I am sorry if you think my use of the term "lost" is my way of putting you down. I swear to you that it is not.
 
That entire post is everything I'm saying you're doing. You're saying you need to spread the word to me because I'm lost and don't get it yet. You're enlightened to God's gift and I'm not. You pray to God in hopes I'll become like you one day, sharing in God's gift.

It's not just the term "lost." It's the attitude behind it. It's the belief that you know something I don't know, and you need to make sure I have every opportunity to become enlightened like you. Your viewpoint is entirely based on the idea that you are correct and I am incorrect.

And it's incredibly condescending.

EDIT: You edited your post, so now this doesn't make much sense. I wish you had left it up. It was a great representation of what I think is the problem I'm having with this.

To your simpler post, I ask: if it's not that, what could it possibly be?
 
yeah, there's a hell. there's a comfy chair there with my name on it. and when i die satan's going to say shit, iwb's here, pack his bags, and turn the place over to me.

nah...just kidding. i think this is it. no heaven, no hell, no afterlife, no meaning of life, no purpose other than we do stuff to keep us busy while we're alive and then we die. i'm not special, you're not special, my friends and family, celebrities, strangers, no one is special or unique. 6 billion people on the planet. if we were all wiped out, the rest of the universe would keep going as it did before we ever showed up.
 
That entire post is everything I'm saying you're doing. You're saying you need to spread the word to me because I'm lost and don't get it yet. You're enlightened to God's gift and I'm not. You pray to God in hopes I'll become like you one day, sharing in God's gift.

It's not just the term "lost." It's the attitude behind it. It's the belief that you know something I don't know, and you need to make sure I have every opportunity to become enlightened like you. Your viewpoint is entirely based on the idea that you are correct and I am incorrect.

And it's incredibly condescending.

EDIT: You edited your post, so now this doesn't make much sense. I wish you had left it up. It was a great representation of what I think is the problem I'm having with this.

To your simpler post, I ask: if it's not that, what could it possibly be?

I don't think that's particuarly fair.

Non believers also often consider themselves the enlightened ones while believers are often considered 'delusional' or 'irrational.' They believe that they know things that believers don't want to comprehend. Their viewpoint can also sometimes be based on the idea that they are correct and believers are not. They can also be condescending looking down on believers as intellectually inferior with their beliefs being akin to a child's belief in Santa.

There is arrogance, intolerance and preaching on both sides. One can be just as blindly dogmatic and indoctrinated against religion as by it.
 
I believe in hell, although I believe that you can repent for your sins.'

Oh, and I also believe the bible is outdated in some places.
 
It's not just the term "lost." It's the attitude behind it. It's the belief that you know something I don't know, Your viewpoint is entirely based on the idea that you are correct and I am incorrect

What is wrong with thinking that someone is incorrect or that you know something that someone else doesn't?

You have never thought that you were correct about something while someone else was incorrect, and then tried to share your "knowledge" with someone? Never? You think it's wrong to do that?

You've done it repeatedly in this very thread, Phil.

But here's the thing, Phil and I say this with 100% honesty: I take no pleasure in being correct for the sake of being correct, as in "Yippee, I'm right, he's wrong. I'll win this argument, by gum".

My only motive and aim when I share the Gospel is so that people will hear the Gospel and maybe get saved.

By the way, I don't take "every opportunity" to preach to you. I've said it as a whole to the people reading this thread, because it is a vital part of my thoughts on Hell, which is the topic of this discussion.

and you need to make sure I have every opportunity to become enlightened like you.


You keep coming back to this "enlightened" thing. There is no "like me" involved. I don't want you to become a Christian because I am a Christian. I want you to become a Christian so that you can have eternal life with God. That's it. That's the only reason. I don't really care if you believe me. It is the 100% honest truth.

EDIT: You edited your post, so now this doesn't make much sense. I wish you had left it up. It was a great representation of what I think is the problem I'm having with this.

I edited my post because I wanted to let this issue lie. But now I'll go ahead and post it in its entirety because it actually gives further support to my stated motivations.

I am sorry if you think my use of the term "lost" is my way of putting you down. I swear to you that it is not.

According to the Bible, every person who has not put his faith in Christ is "lost". Every single person who is not "lost" only has God to thank for that, not themselves. Therefore, since salvation is a free gift, earned only by sacrifice Christ made, the fact that some are lost and some are not does not elevate those who are not lost to any higher level. If we are both offered a free gift, and you accept it, and I don't, surely that wouldn't cause you think that you were better than me. In the same way, I do not see myself as better than anyone who has not accepted the free gift.

I can not hoard that free gift. I must tell others so that they can get reborn and share God's gracious gift.

I do not apologize for saying "lost" because if you are "lost", I want you to know you are lost so that you will see that you need Christ the Savior, just like I need a Savior and just like every person needs the Savior.

Indeed, if the Gospel is true, and you are lost, wouldn't you want someone to tell you? Or would you rather they sit on the knowledge, less concerned with your eternity than with the possibility that you might disapprove of the term "lost"?

If you thought I were lost, I would hope you would tell me.

I thank God that someone told me I was lost.

I won't beat you over the head with it, though. If you do not wish to be a Christian, I can't force it. All I can do is continue to do what I consistently do - pray that people all over the place will get saved
.
 
If an atheist leads a virtuous life filled that improves the happiness of the world and doesn't accept Christ into their hearts before they die do you think that they will go to hell?
 
^ If one believes that humans as we are (i.e. flawed, and guilty of at least occasional wrongs) are unworthy of God's presence without a redeeming intermediary, then I don't see how it could be otherwise.
 
I have to say I feel that what's missing in the discussion between Phil and 80's is the practice of putting yourself in the other's shoes--especially with Phil. 80's tone has been nothing but gentle almost apologetic (though I grant that his actual words may not seem so gentle) whereas Phil seems to feel increasingly free reign to post in a more vitriolic manner, as if the wrongness of 80's positions makes it acceptable for him to "knock him around" a bit verbally.

I'd suggest, Phil, that whether you agree with the position or not, put yourself in 80's shoes. Imagine that you really believe that people can be "lost" and suffer for eternity. What kind of person would you be if you believed that sincerely and then shrugged your shoulders and said "Oh well, I don't want to be preachy or anything. . .let 'em fry. . ."? You're judging 80s views about "the lost" based on YOUR perspective, not his, which strikes me as deeply unfair.

Implicit in this is a slightly different issue, though one that is certainly connected to the topic of hell, which is the appropriateness of what Christans call evangelism or "witnessing."
 
Back
Top Bottom