Do you believe in hell?

[Inner El Guapo]

In total, was the creation, passing down and compilation of all of these stories done with the intent to control the masses, or was it all part of the creation of a strong folk narrative for a race of people? A narrative intended not for control, but to give strength?

The truth is probably, bit of both, at varying times, and it jumbles together.

Yep, both. A narrative to give comfort in the midst of uncertainty which was appropriated into different cultures (the old, old stuff)

In any event, we can see myth making in 'real time' all the time. In politics, in entertainment. There are many examples. The JFK assassination would be a decent example. Roswell, another. We also see it on Interference all time time.

I'm not talking about sinister schemes like L Ron Hubbard...I'm talking more about the mythology of the pursuit of truth - and how if there is no concrete agreement on something - then as time slips away (but certainly before much of written/recorded history - much less in the modern era) those things formulate into urban legends/wives tales and such - and if it is THE biggest question of all time, you can easily imagine how those core myths take hold and change across cultures.

Such as The Great Flood. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth
Certainly a 'dramatic flood event' must have happened, I am talking about the mythology that surrounds it. Even the possessors of the oldest known written language, the Sumerians have that one.

 

[jonnytakeawalk]

Yep, both. A narrative to give comfort in the midst of uncertainty which was appropriated into different cultures (the old, old stuff)

Just as a bit of an aside it's interesting when people talk about religion bringing comfort because I really do think atheism can bring a lot of comfort on its own. To believe that there is no God, no judgement after death, no Hell and that they are accountable to no one would be rather comforting for quite a lot of people.

Those Atheism buses had the slogan, 'There probably isn't a God so stop worrying and enjoy your life.'

 

[A_Wanderer]

I have no reason not to believe that Hell, and religion, were inventions of centuries ago to control the masses. I have no reason to believe the Bible is anything more than a book written by a number of different men riffing on some vague idea of what is moral. As far as I'm concerned, I'm completely certain it was all made up to scare people into submission. It's something that makes sense, it's something that's been documented, and it's something plausible. Religion is in no way plausible.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that I just flat out dislike religion.

I most recently attended mass five days ago.

That I don't know how challenging it is to break away from family traditions makes your free-thought all the more commendable.

 

[PhilsFan]

That I don't know how challenging it is to break away from family traditions makes your free-thought all the more commendable.

I just think it's a shame that I basically have to mend my stated viewpoints based upon the crowd around me. Alas, this society and its attachment to religion have created a huge social stigma against agnosticism and atheism, one that even a family in the northeastern United States in 2011 cannot attempt to avoid.

I appreciate your kind words.

 

[flybabe]

'Religion' a lot of the time, is about living for other people. I know I'm not as close to God as I should be and I try to work on it, but I definitely believe in Hell because it seems Hell is where those who don't believe go. Because think about it, you don't believe in God where do you think you'll go? But I'm assuming that if you don't believe in God, then there is no Hell either.

 

[PhilsFan]

Great to know I'm en route to Hell.

 

[flybabe]

Great to know I'm en route to Hell.

For all I know, I'm probably headed to Hell myself. Higher beings are really hard to please, nearly demanding everything good in a world that doesn't even come close.

 

[Vincent Vega]

Why do you believe the God you believe in demands such a perfection from you?

 

[Galeongirl]

Hell no.

 

[flybabe]

Why do you believe the God you believe in demands such a perfection from you?

God wants us all to live right, get saved and strive to live like His people (however that may be). I want to, I really do but I don't know how to get myself to the point where it matters to me. I don't know how to explain it. I go to church, though I feel like I have no connection with God what so ever, like He doesn't care to listen to what I have to say. Somehow, I know that isn't true.

 

[PhilsFan]

For all I know, I'm probably headed to Hell myself. Higher beings are really hard to please, nearly demanding everything good in a world that doesn't even come close.

These higher beings sound like dicks.

We're only as good as the world allows us to be.

 

[Casamares]

God wants us all to live right, get saved and strive to live like His people (however that may be). I want to, I really do but I don't know how to get myself to the point where it matters to me. I don't know how to explain it. I go to church, though I feel like I have no connection with God what so ever, like He doesn't care to listen to what I have to say. Somehow, I know that isn't true.

Well, that criminal who was crucified with Jesus surely didn't live right, but Jesus promised him heaven.

 

[Vincent Vega]

God wants us all to live right, get saved and strive to live like His people (however that may be). I want to, I really do but I don't know how to get myself to the point where it matters to me. I don't know how to explain it. I go to church, though I feel like I have no connection with God what so ever, like He doesn't care to listen to what I have to say. Somehow, I know that isn't true.

I would think that the God as in the new testament is a benevolent God who created us in his image and wants us to strive for a good, happy life. Not only for us, but also for the people around us. And he equipped us with free will, desires (sexual, material etc.) not to then demand from us to feel ashamed by them, but to use them. And in the end, where you end up will be decided on the balance of what you did in life, not if you have been perfect at any moment or tried to exactly copy him.
Mind you, I don't believe in any entity, so that's merely my interpretation from what I've learnt in school and in my youth.

 

[flybabe]

Well, that criminal who was crucified with Jesus surely didn't live right, but Jesus promised him heaven.

That's true. Is this saying that even though I don't think or feel I'm God material, He still cares? I know He cares about everyone, even those who don't care about Him. He's very patient and forgiving, and we take this for granted.

What to you think would have happened had He forced people to believe and get saved, than to had given us free will as we have now?

 

[Casamares]

That's true. Is this saying that even though I don't think or feel I'm God material, He still cares? I know He cares about everyone, even those who don't care about Him. He's very patient and forgiving, and we take this for granted.

What to you think would have happened had He forced people to believe and get saved, than to had given us free will as we have now?

God forcing people to anything... I just can't imagine it as I said earlier in this thread. Free will was His idea and He knew what will happen, but He decided to give people choice.
Otherwise people would be a kind of puppets, unable to make decisions etc.
God wanted people to choose Him, but knowingly, because it means more.

 

[PhilsFan]

I found it funny when God created homosexuals and then told them all they should be killed for being homosexual.

 

[Vincent Vega]

I found it funny when God created homosexuals and then told them all they should be killed for being homosexual.

This, and also issues such as desire, as I mentioned before, I never quite figured out. On the one hand, God created us in his own image, and gave us all the inherent characteristics that we possess now. Then he said, "But dare you using them!"? That's cruel to me. First he makes us imperfect, then he punishes us for being imperfect. (Disclaimer: Of course, imperfect in the sense of what God is supposed to value as perfect, not what I view as perfect.)

 

[Casamares]

This, and also issues such as desire, as I mentioned before, I never quite figured out. On the one hand, God created us in his own image, and gave us all the inherent characteristics that we possess now. Then he said, "But dare you using them!"? That's cruel to me. First he makes us imperfect, then he punishes us for being imperfect. (Disclaimer: Of course, imperfect in the sense of what God is supposed to value as perfect, not what I view as perfect.)

I think God created people with the possibility to be perfect. Free will couldn't have been included in being perfect automatically.

My understanding of the punishment in OT: God "signed a deal" with people and they promised they'd obey the law. It's somewhere in the Bible (I'm not good at quoting) that without the law there are no punishment. Punishment appears when somebody declares to do/not to do particular things and then breaks a deal.

In NT we could mention Peter, who was totally imperfect - he doubted many times, fell asleep in the night when Jesus was arrested and then rejected Him three times. Despite all of those things he was chosen to be the leader of the group.

 

[80sU2isBest]

God wants us all to live right, get saved and strive to live like His people (however that may be). I want to, I really do but I don't know how to get myself to the point where it matters to me. I don't know how to explain it. I go to church, though I feel like I have no connection with God what so ever, like He doesn't care to listen to what I have to say. Somehow, I know that isn't true.

Don't be disheartened. If salvation were based on how "good" we are, no one would make it to Heaven.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."
Ephesians 2:8-9

 

[nathan1977]

On the one hand, God created us in his own image, and gave us all the inherent characteristics that we possess now. Then he said, "But dare you using them!"? That's cruel to me. First he makes us imperfect, then he punishes us for being imperfect.

The Scriptures make it pretty clear that we were made perfect, but we chose imperfection. The way we so often choose what we want, not what we need.

As far as the commandments, the Ten Commandments, the Torah, and even the commands of Jesus are all pretty rooted in what happens when human beings begin to use and exploit one another, rather than bless and help one another. The Bible's take on homosexuality by liberal scholars can be used to support this position. Sexuality is a gift, but not one to be used lightly. Pleasure is a good thing in the eyes of God, but not when it comes at the expense of others.

 

[nathan1977]

These higher beings sound like dicks.

"It's no secret that a conscience can sometimes be a pest."

We're only as good as the world allows us to be.

I have often said that I'm grateful God loves me as I am, but He doesn't leave me that way.

 

[Inner El Guapo]

I just think it's a shame that I basically have to mend my stated viewpoints based upon the crowd around me. Alas, this society and its attachment to religion have created a huge social stigma against agnosticism and atheism, one that even a family in the northeastern United States in 2011 cannot attempt to avoid.

More important than any social stigma is the stigma it might bring within your family. If that requires that you keep up the charade - I say go for it.

I've brought up my extreme skepticism for 'all things religion' around my mother before - she's a devout Evangelical - but what is the use other than to antagonize her? My dad used to do that shit too - that's part of why they got divorced but anyhow...should my mother and I ever talk about 'something Joel Osteen said', I nod my head and politely play along.

Truth is, Joel Osteen (for one example) has a pretty positive message, so it's not that bad. It's only when she brings up other kooks I have to practically bite through my tongue - and I don't always do it.

 

[Inner El Guapo]

Just as a bit of an aside it's interesting when people talk about religion bringing comfort because I really do think atheism can bring a lot of comfort on its own. To believe that there is no God, no judgement after death, no Hell and that they are accountable to no one would be rather comforting for quite a lot of people.

Those Atheism buses had the slogan, 'There probably isn't a God so stop worrying and enjoy your life.'

Absolutely. I think some people are comforted in just making the decision. Which was part of what I was saying - explaining my comfort with my own agnosticism.

I have determined, for myself, that the decision is entirely irrelevant to how you choose to behave and carry yourself towards others.

 

[Vincent Vega]

The Scriptures make it pretty clear that we were made perfect, but we chose imperfection. The way we so often choose what we want, not what we need.

As far as the commandments, the Ten Commandments, the Torah, and even the commands of Jesus are all pretty rooted in what happens when human beings begin to use and exploit one another, rather than bless and help one another. The Bible's take on homosexuality by liberal scholars can be used to support this position. Sexuality is a gift, but not one to be used lightly. Pleasure is a good thing in the eyes of God, but not when it comes at the expense of others.

And economists say people are rational...

So then the only issue God should have should be with rape and child abuse.

 

[financeguy]

That I don't know how challenging it is to break away from family traditions makes your free-thought all the more commendable.

For me, as a confirmed non-believer from an RC background, I never attend Mass, and though I generally avoid rows about religion, if someone else starts a debate about religion, I will take them up on it and do my best to advocate for the atheist perspective, in the politest way possible.

What's bizarre to me is that, with Irish people of my generation, they never go to mass, they don't receive the sacraments, they have approximately the same belief in god as you or I - i.e, sfa, they are openly angry regarding the misdeeds of the Catholic Church and the child rapists it protected - and yet, then when they go and get hitched up and get married, the official blessing of the RCC is usually required. Very rarely is the civil ceremony opted for.

Irish people are very much in the al-a-carte Catholic mode - one of the few positives that come out of the child abuse scandals is that people are openly offensive about religion along the lines of "so, did you find a paedophile to officiate at the wedding then? Best keep him away from the kids if so!", that kind of black humour.

I find these positions hard to reconcile. The prevading influence of religion is a bit of a mindfuck, quite frankly. Or a meme, perhaps, a social meme.

As for the original question, in the immortal words of Trick, hell is around the corner where I shelter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVFAWSbdrGI

 

[A_Wanderer]

More important than any social stigma is the stigma it might bring within your family. If that requires that you keep up the charade - I say go for it.

I've brought up my extreme skepticism for 'all things religion' around my mother before - she's a devout Evangelical - but what is the use other than to antagonize her? My dad used to do that shit too - that's part of why they got divorced but anyhow...should my mother and I ever talk about 'something Joel Osteen said', I nod my head and politely play along.

Truth is, Joel Osteen (for one example) has a pretty positive message, so it's not that bad. It's only when she brings up other kooks I have to practically bite through my tongue - and I don't always do it.

There might be good practical reasons for keeping disbelief silent but at the same time if few are open about their lack of belief then societal attitudes will not change. There is a role for atheist activism in championing secular issues which protect everybody's rights and pointing out falsehoods about nonbelievers.

PhilsFan is a smart and presumably morally competent person. Being honest about what he thinks will not change that.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Daniel Dennett has influenced my thinking on the origins and persistence of religions.

YouTube - Dan Dennett: Ants, terrorism, and the awesome power of memes

It's good to see some honesty about what people believe. For instance that nonbelievers will go to hell if they don't accept Jesus into their hearts. It don't take it personally because I know that I can act conscientiously without the carrot and stick of heaven and hell.

It's also worth noting that the type of free will that posters in this thread seem to assume we possess has a few problems. The notion of cause and effect in our world tilts me towards determinism and even introducing some truly random non-deterministic event that alters my actions still leaves my thought processes beyond my control. My feeling is that we all have an illusion of choice and are psychologically primed with concepts about moral responsibility that don't easily reconcile with determinism.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Deleted this post for possible refining.

 

[Vincent Vega]

It's also worth noting that the type of free will that posters in this thread seem to assume we possess has a few problems. The notion of cause and effect in our world tilts me towards determinism and even introducing some truly random non-deterministic event that alters my actions still leaves my thought processes beyond my control. My feeling is that we all have an illusion of choice and are psychologically primed with concepts about moral responsibility that don't easily reconcile with determinism.

Reminds me a bit of the economic concept of "path dependency". This theory assumes that "history matters", in other words, the economic history of a country strongly influences choices made in times of crises or when facing decisions on economic policy in general. We think we are perfectly free to decide, change and adapt, but in fact we always fall back into the path our ancestors have taken. Don't know if that's really similar to what you are saying, though.

 

[nathan1977]

So then the only issue God should have should be with rape and child abuse.

Are those the only ways people abuse their sexuality?