Do you believe in hell?

[BoMac]

Well, as Vincent said, prove to themselves, maybe. I think the very nature of humanity's relationship to God necessitates that we can't prove he exists in the concrete sense.

This. I was just coming in to post this.

 

[BEAL]

I feel like it's important to qualify this by saying that this is your experience. There are smart, learned, empathetic, intuitive people who have had enough experience (answered prayers, supernatural visions, etc.) to prove that God does indeed exist. I think maycocksean's reply to your earlier post was a good summation of the feelings of a lot of people on the subject.

So we have proof of answered prayers or supernatural visions? Good things or bad things happen to everyone, regardless of asking for a blessing or for it to happen. And that would beg the question why are some prayers answered and others not? That would show some favortism.

And for supernatural visions, while there's been documented cases of such, they haven't been scientifically proven, and therefore more research or experimentation is needed to provide a clear answer.

Since there is no clear answer for the above, that doesn't mean GOD is the answer. Sometimes there are gaps with no answer, and it's just human nature to associate a higher power to fill in those gaps. Also, those two things you mention are just opinions. People can have those, but they can't have their own facts. I can say that I can walk on water, but unless I actually prove it, just my opinion.

And I'm not saying that people who believe are not logical, smart, etc....even if it's coming across that way. I work with many people who are some of the smartest men/women (and throw in kind and loving) I know. when it comes to their job, they make clear rational decisions, they don't leave things up to fate or faith, cause that wouldn't cut it with their boss. Just like you'd hope that when you go in for a operation, the doctors are going off of their medical schooling and actual experiences, not trying something out on you as a guess or matter of faith.

My parents believe in heaven/hell/god, and i strongly disagree with them, and I share my thoughts and they do the same....but that doesn't mean I think less of them. .

So while there are rational, thoughtful people who are relgious, I just feel it's confusing to me that when it comes to something as the afterlife, those same qualities are excused or removed from the conversation.

 

[80sU2isBest]

So we have proof of answered prayers or supernatural visions? Good things or bad things happen to everyone, regardless of asking for a blessing or for it to happen.

You might find interesting my story of a supernatural occurrence that at the least, prevented serious injury, and at most, saved my life. If you'd like, I can post it here.

And that would beg the question why are some prayers answered and others not? That would show some favortism.

I've been a Christian for 31 years. Many times I have asked why God answers some prayers, but not others.

But now I think I was asking the wrong question. Now my question is "why do I assume he doesn't answer all prayers"?

Would someone who has no interest in God at all even hear God if God spoke to him?

But that question's not just limited to those who show no interest in God. Even those of us who want God's will in our lives, if we lose focus, aren't we less likely to hear what he's saying?

The "supernatural event" I alluded to above deals with God telling me to do something unusual ,specifically stated in order to avoid something bad that would happen if I didn't. I obeyed, did the unusual thing and avoided the bad thing. I saw the bad thing happen right in front of my eyes, but no one was hurt, because I obeyed.

In 1989 my brother, a man of strong faith, was killed in a car accident. Did God value me more than my brother? No no no. But then, why didn't God tell him something that would cause him to avoid the car accident? I don't know that he didn't tell him something. I don't know what happened, because my brother died. I have no idea if God told him something but that my brother dismissed it thinking it was just his own silly thought, or that he was being paranoid. Maybe my brother would be alive today if he had realized that it was indeed God telling him to have another donut that morning, or God telling him that maybe he should go another way that day.

But I will ask him when I see him again some day.

One thing I've really learned in the last several years, since I've been away from FYM, is that I just can't put God in a box. He can and does do things I never could imagine.

In fact, that's one of the many reasons I don't argue politics or morality anymore. God is so much bigger than politics and morality, and he works in ways I couldn't imagine possible. That's not to say I don't believe in specific "right and wrong way" anymore but God's love is so much more important and mysterious than all that. And I'm not about to tell anyone that I think he's bein "immoral". Good grief, if God judged me based on good works or morality, I wouldn't be able to step 5,000 miles within his presence. God's love for sinners (all of us) is my focus when I share the Gospel.

 

[jonnytakeawalk]

Hitchens doesn't say that 'heaven' is like North Korea, specificaly. One of his (many) lines of argument against Christianity is that it's totalitarian. That the whole thing is like a "divine North Korea." He's an anti-theist, not an atheist. An atheist simply believes its not real, but they might still quite like the idea, wish it were real, just don't think it adds up for whatever reason. An anti-theist believes it is not real, but also wrong. Glad that it isn't real. And Hitchens argues that Religion/Christianity is both (a) bullshit, and (b) evil.

He uses the 'North Korea' riff a lot, paraphrasing it, it's something like: You are created sick, and then commanded to be well. Under continuous surveillance for not just your entire waking life, but your entire sleeping life too, where you can be convicted of thought crime. You're a slave in a ghastly experiment, overseen by a divine dictatorship, who commands you offer your continual praise. A celestial North Korea. And then often adds a line about how at least in North Korea, they're done with you once your dead.

In the words of John Lennox who has debated Hitchen's a few times, 'In the same way I could describe marriage as a terrible thing, there is a woman who is in my house and she watches all that I do and she sees everything I do and I could write off marriage for that reason but if I were to write it off I would be writing off all the wonderful things it brings like security, care, affection, love and trust.'

 

[Canadiens1131]

This Christian is closer to LDS Theology

YouTube - LOVE WINS - Rob Bell

You mean he's chillin' with Joseph Smith, Jr. and a truckload of womens?

 

[Irvine511]

In 1989 my brother, a man of strong faith, was killed in a car accident. Did God value me more than my brother? No no no. But then, why didn't God tell him something that would cause him to avoid the car accident? I don't know that he didn't tell him something. I don't know what happened, because my brother died. I have no idea if God told him something but that my brother dismissed it thinking it was just his own silly thought, or that he was being paranoid. Maybe my brother would be alive today if he had realized that it was indeed God telling him to have another donut that morning, or God telling him that maybe he should go another way that day.

as someone who has recently lost someone very close to him in a car accident, i find the idea that the person died because they didn't "listen" to god almost unspeakably offensive.

so you've had a near miss. you can also retroactively explain this to yourself through the prism of your faith. that does not in any way objectively prove any sort of supernatural interference. that's your projection upon the events of life. if that helps you to understand the world, if that helps you to sleep better at night believing that a loving God is interested in you, more power to you. but, please, don't for a second think that things like car accidents, cancer, earthquakes, tsunamis, or any other myriad awful things that can befall delicate creatures such as ourselves are meted out by an arbitrary and childish god who requires submission and groveling in order to get some kind of cosmic Get-Out-of-Jail-Free card.

i know you didn't come here to argue, and i don't mean to sound harsh, but these things are still very raw to me, and i can't not respond.

 

[nathan1977]

please, don't for a second think that things like car accidents, cancer, earthquakes, tsunamis, or any other myriad awful things that can befall delicate creatures such as ourselves are meted out by an arbitrary and childish god who requires submission and groveling in order to get some kind of cosmic Get-Out-of-Jail-Free card.

I would be surprised if that's what 80s was saying. If that was indeed what was meant, I have a difficult time agreeing with that as well.

And I'm very, very sorry for your loss, Irvine.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I think Hell exists already here on earth-in many different forms. What happens after that, I have no idea. I don't live my life to get to Heaven or Hell, but more to avoid the hells here on earth as much as possible-and because I just prefer to live the way that I do.

 

[Inner El Guapo]

Aren't you just hedging your bets though? I wasn't aware that atheism is supposed to explain anything, that's what science is for. I'm an atheist because science has not proven a God to exist....yet. And for some that may be reason enough to be Agnostic. My personality isn't one to sit on the fence though. I'm more in the moment, and truthfully in this moment no God has been proven to exist. Maybe tomorrow, maybe 100 years from now that's true, but right now, He/She/It does not, so I'm Atheist.
.

I don't think you're coming off as 'rude' just perhaps 'typical' of a 'Decider'. You believe you've exhausted the limits of the intellectual pursuit...which to me, is unfortunate. Especially when these 'Decider' types preach sound/logical skepticism and scientific method. Agnosticism is indeed (ALSO) a position reached after life-long pursuits...not just throwing up your hands in the air and shrugging...or "hedging your bets".

This isn't a 'salvation game' to me. That is all man-made dogmatic religious poo. This is supposed to be an intellectual search for TRUTH. You spoke about logic, reason, science, etc. How about we actually use it as a search for truth? It doesn't take any "faith" at all to be atheist- as purpleoscar is erroneously suggesting - but in order to be an atheist, you have to have made a decision about something that is (thus far) completely unknowable. This is the crux of MY issue. Those that are so sure - that they've arrived at a decision that doesn't have to be made - if only to say they are done looking until further notice.

There is just SO MUCH that we do not know and couldn't hope to know at this time in our current scientific standing. And so many atheists (vast majority) - only see ideas about God/creation, etc. through man-made religious lenses. And this is what turns most atheists into atheists, believing they need to CONTRAST that ridiculous religion they were raised on - or any other man-made notion. Some people just don't like saying "I don't know', so they have to 'decide'. Fair enough - I get it, I just don't think that way.

I think the proper intellectual position is precisely to be on the fence. A position that Albert Einstein and many others agreed with. Think about it - can you PROVE it either way?No. So why have you made up your mind?

Because again - in my view - so many of you only see these MASSIVE ideas about God and creation - in this fairytale sense about religious dogma. This is why I believe - although I enjoy Hitchens and others - the "anti-theist" movement is the most anti-intellectual group of bona fide intellectuals I've ever heard in my life. That God would have to fit these certain boundaries - or more pointedly that the only way to defeat 'God' in the public square - is to hold up the God of man-made religion and knock over that 'strawman'. Ridiculous. Religion is indeed a sham - but that doesn't mean that atheism has to be the only alternative at this moment. That's all I'm saying.

Why do we even ask the question? Outside of curiosity, most of us - at some point - will find ourselves 'lost' in our own lives. And how does someone that is 'lost' in their own life, eventually find themselves? They stop looking.

I guess I'm one of those people that will never stop looking.
Because I'm not convinced we know the truth or that we will ever know the truth. And that's fine by me. I don't need to decide. I can live by the 'golden rule' and treat others as I'd expect/hope to be treated. If that's not good enough for a 'God', then oh well...and if there never was a God, then oh well.
In any case, we are responsible for whatever we do. So let's be good to one another regardless. In the meantime, some of you need to stop trying to sell some of us that you've figured it all out. You haven't...you couldn't have figured it out.

 

[80sU2isBest]

as someone who has recently lost someone very close to him in a car accident, i find the idea that the person died because they didn't "listen" to god almost unspeakably offensive.

Rest assured, I'm not blaming anyone's on death on "not hearing God". My brother died because of a freak accident. That's all.

but, please, don't for a second think that things like car accidents, cancer, earthquakes, tsunamis, or any other myriad awful things that can befall delicate creatures such as ourselves are meted out by an arbitrary and childish god who requires submission and groveling in order to get some kind of cosmic Get-Out-of-Jail-Free card.

I don't for a second think that. That is not my view of God at all. In fact, I was saying the opposite; that maybe God answers all prayers, not favoring anyone. As Bono says "Blessings aren't just for those who kneel".

 

[80sU2isBest]

I would be surprised if that's what 80s was saying.

Thanks, and you're right. That's not what I was saying.

 

[yolland]

in the end, i think that faith is its own reward. there are clearly enormous benefits to having faith and i think if one chooses to have faith, more power to you. just be humble, and aware that there's a great big world out there that's more complex, and more beautiful, than we ever imagined.

I don't think many people really choose to have faith (or not). Doctrine is certainly a choice, something one arrives at by reasoning (albeit none too thoroughly in some cases). But the bare fact of belief, disbelief, or keen uncertainty as to whether there's something greater than us and our reality out there--generally, I think that just is what it is. And it might be that convictions about the afterlife work the same way--it's hard for me to judge, because for as long as I can remember I've never really felt anything one way or another about the prospect; I only know that when I try to reason it through, I run into unbridgeable gaps, mostly having to do with doubts about whether the subjective self actually endures beyond or points to anything beyond the brain. (I realize you could raise similar doubts about apprehensions of God...that's why faith and reason are different, and why I don't have any problem saying, Yes, I believe, but I also accept I could be wrong.) At any rate, I'm quite certain faith itself is rarely voluntary. As I've mentioned before, I tried quite hard to 'become' an atheist for a few years as a young adult (certainly would've made my vain little private Bildungsroman, in which yours truly uncovers the truths of life, the universe et al. through a grand synthesis of the world's wisdom traditions, much easier going). But it didn't work, I couldn't shake my sense of experience of God. And once I accepted that, it further occurred to me that I'd never really looked to religion (and here I mean religion, the social and cultural institution, not faith Yes-or-No) to explain the mysteries of the universe, anyway--I like ethical monotheism's insistence on social justice, I like the vision of tikkun olam, healing a broken world together; the tradition is vast and diverse enough that I couldn't nail myself to some 'definitive' list of precepts even if I wanted to, I can remain a student forever. And that was really so freeing to come to that realization.

As soon as that thought was thought, I remember another though, that I attribute to God: "Don't you think I love the lost even more than you do? I gave you the love you have for them. Don't you think I do everything possible to convince them of my love for them?"

In 19th-century Eastern Europe, there was a major Jewish reform and revival movement inspired by the work of a rabbi and fierce advocate for the poor named Israel Salanter. He isn't much remembered for his eloquence, but one saying of his which did became very famous was, Worry about another man's body and your own soul, not another man's soul and your own body. I'll skip the context for brevity's sake, but he didn't mean by that: Shut up about your faith and just do good works. He meant that we don't heal suffering by saying, Here's what you're doing wrong and how you should fix it, but rather by asking, Where does it hurt and how can I help. Because if you aren't first awake to God in them, then what hope can there be of them becoming awake to God through you?

I know that's not quite the direction you were taking it in, it's just something that immediately came to mind for me when I read your quote above.

He uses the 'North Korea' riff a lot, paraphrasing it, it's something like: You are created sick, and then commanded to be well. Under continuous surveillance for not just your entire waking life, but your entire sleeping life too, where you can be convicted of thought crime. You're a slave in a ghastly experiment, overseen by a divine dictatorship, who commands you offer your continual praise. A celestial North Korea. And then often adds a line about how at least in North Korea, they're done with you once your dead.

It's chestnuts like that that sometimes tempt me to cheaply write off Hitchens as a bloated monomanic shrill, looking to excuse his own demons (sorry, inner totalitarians) by projecting them onto real and imagined adversaries whose offenses he takes absurdly personally. I don't mean that with reference to his illness, which is truly tragic. He can be so brilliant as a literary critic; it's confounding to me that he can't see how that same dynamic and varied conversation between teller and listener also manifests itself elsewhere.

 

[80sU2isBest]

I
He meant that we don't heal suffering by saying, Here's what you're doing wrong and how you should fix it, but rather by asking, Where does it hurt and how can I help. Because if you aren't first awake to God in them, then what hope can there be of them becoming awake to God through you?

That is beautiful; simply beautiful. Thanks for sharing that with me.

 

[Pearl]

I don't think you're coming off as 'rude' just perhaps 'typical' of a 'Decider'. You believe you've exhausted the limits of the intellectual pursuit...which to me, is unfortunate. Especially when these 'Decider' types preach sound/logical skepticism and scientific method. Agnosticism is indeed (ALSO) a position reached after life-long pursuits...not just throwing up your hands in the air and shrugging...or "hedging your bets".

This isn't a 'salvation game' to me. That is all man-made dogmatic religious poo. This is supposed to be an intellectual search for TRUTH. You spoke about logic, reason, science, etc. How about we actually use it as a search for truth? It doesn't take any "faith" at all to be atheist- as purpleoscar is erroneously suggesting - but in order to be an atheist, you have to have made a decision about something that is (thus far) completely unknowable. This is the crux of MY issue. Those that are so sure - that they've arrived at a decision that doesn't have to be made - if only to say they are done looking until further notice.

There is just SO MUCH that we do not know and couldn't hope to know at this time in our current scientific standing. And so many atheists (vast majority) - only see ideas about God/creation, etc. through man-made religious lenses. And this is what turns most atheists into atheists, believing they need to CONTRAST that ridiculous religion they were raised on - or any other man-made notion. Some people just don't like saying "I don't know', so they have to 'decide'. Fair enough - I get it, I just don't think that way.

I think the proper intellectual position is precisely to be on the fence. A position that Albert Einstein and many others agreed with. Think about it - can you PROVE it either way?No. So why have you made up your mind?

Because again - in my view - so many of you only see these MASSIVE ideas about God and creation - in this fairytale sense about religious dogma. This is why I believe - although I enjoy Hitchens and others - the "anti-theist" movement is the most anti-intellectual group of bona fide intellectuals I've ever heard in my life. That God would have to fit these certain boundaries - or more pointedly that the only way to defeat 'God' in the public square - is to hold up the God of man-made religion and knock over that 'strawman'. Ridiculous. Religion is indeed a sham - but that doesn't mean that atheism has to be the only alternative at this moment. That's all I'm saying.

Why do we even ask the question? Outside of curiosity, most of us - at some point - will find ourselves 'lost' in our own lives. And how does someone that is 'lost' in their own life, eventually find themselves? They stop looking.

I guess I'm one of those people that will never stop looking.
Because I'm not convinced we know the truth or that we will ever know the truth. And that's fine by me. I don't need to decide. I can live by the 'golden rule' and treat others as I'd expect/hope to be treated. If that's not good enough for a 'God', then oh well...and if there never was a God, then oh well.
In any case, we are responsible for whatever we do. So let's be good to one another regardless. In the meantime, some of you need to stop trying to sell some of us that you've figured it all out. You haven't...you couldn't have figured it out.

Well said, Inner El Guapo,

 

[A_Wanderer]

If the proportion of "answered" prayers was greater than what one would expect from random chance that would be an interesting finding. Although as it stands it appears the universe doesn't favour the pious with anything more than a tendency for confirmation bias.

On the question of how dogmatic certain atheists are this division could be useful.

A chart showing the relationship between the definitions of weak/strong and implicit/explicit atheism. Explicit strong/positive/hard atheists (in purple on the right) assert that "at least one deity exists" is a false statement. Explicit weak/negative/soft atheists (in blue on the right) reject or eschew belief that any deities exist without actually asserting that "at least one deity exists" is a false statement. Implicit weak atheists (in blue on the left) would include people (such as young children and some agnostics) who do not believe in a deity, but have not explicitly rejected such belief.

Negative and positive atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Pearl]

I thought this thread didn't interest you, A_W.

 

[Canadiens1131]

Explicit atheism has a huuuuuuuuge areola.

 

[the iron horse]

press play>>>



I'm a rolling thunder, poutin rain
I'm comin' down like a hurricane
My lightning's flashing across the sky
You're only young but you're gonna die

I won't take no prisoners, won't spare no lives
Nobody's putting up a fight
I got my bell, I'm gonna take you to hell
I'm gonna get ya, Satan get ya


Hell's Bells
Yeah, Hell's Bells
You got me ringin' Hell's Bells
My temperature's high, Hell's Bells

I'll give you black sensations up and down your spine
If you're into evil you're a friend of mine
See my white light flashing as I split the night
'Cause if Good's on the left,
Then I'm stickin' to the right

I won't take no prisoners, won't spare no lives
Nobody's puttin' up a fight
I got my bell, I'm gonna take you to hell
I'm gonna get ya, Satan get you

Hell's Bells
Yeah, Hell's Bells
You got me ringin' Hells Bells
My temperature's high, Hell's Bells


Hell's Bells, Satan's comin' to you
Hell's Bells, he's ringing them now
Hell's Bells, the temperature's high
Hell's Bells, across the sky
Hell's Bells, they're takin' you down
Hell's Bells, they're draggin' you around
Hell's Bells, gonna split the night
Hell's Bells, there's no way to fight, yeah
Ow, ow, ow, ow
Hell's Bells


~AC/DC

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

To go back to the therapy notion, I don't think you can help people who don't want to be helped, or who don't admit they have a problem. I suppose that's why Jesus avoided the self-righteous who thought they had it figured out; they had no need for Him.

Having just watched Tom Shadyac's new documentary I AM, where he talks about all the things that are killing our souls (consumerism, competition, greed, etc), and how tuned out we are to it all, I think it's safe to say that few of us really know what's good for us. The problem, however, is that we're all being told we're all right, when the reality is far different...

Tooooooo true.

I don't understand those who claim to "have it all figured out". I don't get how you can, either way. Religious people talk all the time about how God works in mysterious ways and yet they claim they know about what he wants and asks and all that-how can that be if he's supposedly so mysterious? And atheists-I understand their point of view much more, but at the same time, there are mysteries in the world. They may or may not be attributed to a "god", per se, but the fact that there are things out there sometimes that can't always be explained away does lend itself to some interesting possibilities.

I just don't get why everyone feels the need to try and make everyone else see their point of view on this issue. Discussion and trying to understand is fine and well and good, but why can't people just let it end there? You can't force people to change their minds, especially with something as personal as this. What's the point of having followers who were forced to believe something rather than follow because they genuinely feel the same way you do?

I'm a teacher, so I guess there's something in me that has to believe that redemption is possible for everyone. If I started dwelling the statastics or the statistically liklihood I wouldn't be very effective in my job. Sure, you know that the reality is that you can't save them all but that's not what you focus on.

I see nothing wrong at all with holding on to that kind of hope . One person's life improving is better than none at all. And if you can't help them out, there's always the possibility someone else will come along and pick up where you left off. Help comes in all forms.

My beliefs are totally mixed up anymore. I still hold on to some concept of a higher being, but I'm not even really sure why, because I have so many questions about that very topic myself. I don't believe in heaven and hell in the literal sense, I think they're both states of mind and everyone will experience them each at one point and time (and each mindset means different things for each person, I don't think it's a one size fits all sort of deal). I like the idea of reincarnation as a means to redeem or punish for whatever actions you take in life, I think it makes more sense to me than the heaven/hell punishment, but again, how possible it is, I don't know.

And yet, despite having so many questions, I don't feel "lost", rather, I feel pretty comfortable. I like leaving it all messy and unanswered. I think that's kinda how it's supposed to be. And I look forward to finding out the answers when the time comes (which, hopefully, won't be for a really, REALLY long time. I can wait).

I will say this, though: Sean, if I lived anywhere near you, I'd gladly go visit your church. Your teachings make it sound like my kind of place.

Angela

 

[diamond]

I said I was never going to argue in Free Your Mind again, and I won't. But this is a very important subject to me, so I wanted to input.

The Christians I know do not feel "special" because we believe we are going to Heaven. We feel grateful, because we know that it was Christ's death on the cross that provides the tickets, not our own works. But then again, none of us are Calvinists; none of us believe that God predestines some people to Heaven and some to Hell.

Also, we do not "want" there to be a hell. We believe there is a hell, but it grieves us to think of anyone going there.

But hell is not a place that God "sends" anyone to. According to the Bible, in fact, hell was created not for man, but for "the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41). However, people will go there who are not forgiven because their spirit is sinful, not clean. Sinful spirits cannot live in Heaven because light and darkness cannot abide together, and God cannot abide in the presence of sin. To have a clean spirit, one must be "born again", as Jesus said to Nicodemus. How to be born again? As Jesus said "believe upon him whom the Father hath sent".

But having that understanding doesn't make me feel better about people going to hell.

Please allow me to reveal some personal history. I myself am well off compared to many parts of the world. I have a roof over my head, am relatively healthy, and I have never gone a day without food in my belly (except for a 1 day fast, which I will never purposely do again, ha ha), But I am a very sensitive person toward other people who do go through those things, and about 4 years ago, I went through a long period of severe depression over things like that which I cannot control. A large part of my depression was the idea of hell, and that no matter how many people I told about Christ, I can't force anyone to accept him. People have free will, and that bothered me. I was severely depressed. I remember times when I stood in the shower falling to my knees and weeping my heart out, feeling as if my tears outnumbered the drops of water.

During this time period, I prayed to God, cried out to him for understanding of hell and reconciling it with the "God Is Love" exclamation of the Book Of John. I studied the subject thoroughly, hoping for evidence that the scriptures have been mistranslated and that spirits who have not been forgiven will just cease to exist when the body dies. I wanted there to be no hell. But I also wanted to find truth, no matter what it was. Sadly, I must report that I didn't find the evidence I sought, and therefore I conclude that hell does exist.

However, James 1:5 says "If you need wisdom, ask our generous God, and he will give it to you. He will not rebuke you for asking". I believe that God has answered my prayers starting 3.5 years years ago and has been giving me the wisdom I sought.

But what happened to me? Am I still as depreseed over the issue of hell as I was?

I have a vivid recollection of one particular night that started my healing in that area. I lay in bed one night, thinking and worrying over hell. I remember specifically thinking "If I were God, I would zap one last revelation into people's conscious the split second before they died, maybe a visitation from Christ saying "I am the Savior, as you have heard. Put your faith in me, before it's too late." As soon as that thought was thought, I remember another though, that I attribute to God: "Don't you think I love the lost even more than you do? I gave you the love you have for them. Don't you think I do everything possible to convince them of my love for them?"

At that moment, I felt peace wash over me, like a tidal wave. In the days, weeks, months, years that have followed, I believe God has granted me the following truths about hell. Note that none of these are "special exclusive revelations". Support for all of these can be found in the Bible.

(1) That God is perfectly able to deliver such death bed revelations to people. I believe he does. I do not necessarily believe he does to people who have spent their entire life actively rejecting the Gospel. But if he does, that's A-OK with me!

(2) When it comes to presenting the Gospel to people, God is not dependent on me nor is he limited by my human methods. God works in mysterious ways of which I don't understand. He is able to get the message out to those who grew up heavily influenced by other religions and belief systems. And he doesn't need my voice or the voice of anyone else to deliver that message. He doesn't leave anyone without ample opportunity. He loves us all and wants us all to come to him. 2 Peter 3:9: "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

(3) God leaves no stone unturned in saving people from the hell that an unclean/sinful spirit brings.

(4) And here's one that some Christians might not agree with. Because the Bible says that "he who seeks the truth will find it", I believe that anyone who is truly interested in God's will, righteousness (for righteousness' own sake, not ulterior motives) will indeed find Christ, and therefore, having that tender heart will put their faith in him and be saved.

There you have it, my input. I won't argue these points, as there is no possibility that I will change, believing that study of scripture and the revelation of God has given them to me.

Great post 80s.
Personal revelation is real, and you experienced it after pondering and praying over a certain subject.

God knows us all individually whether we want to conceptualize that idea or not; he knows each of us by name -even down to the number of hairs we have on our heads.

King James Bible
But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows

He has a plan for each of us. The deal in this life to have faith in him, get in tune with Him and seek his wisdom in all you to do with your life- who you are to help, what type of occupation you should have etc, so that day when you do meet Him face to face, He will embrace you and say:

" Well done, [thou] good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord."


Matt 25:21
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[Diemen]

"I do not believe in a God whose will or motives are crystal clear to me. And as a person of faith, I find myself deeply suspicious of those who claim such insight."

-- Rabbi Daniel Polish

 

[BVS]

 

[Basstrap]

It is a huge comfort to be able to say that I don't believe in any of this anymore. It's an enormous burden off my shoulders not having to waste time and mental resources on trying to understand the mind of a being that does not exist.
Much of my early life has been lost to that fruitless endeavor, but never again will I lie awake at night toiling over the attributes of god or trying to rationalize spiritual beliefs.

so, no, I most definitely do not believe in hell (outside of hell on earth.)

 

[The Sad Punk]

 

[80sU2isBest]

"I do not believe in a God whose will or motives are crystal clear to me. And as a person of faith, I find myself deeply suspicious of those who claim such insight."

-- Rabbi Daniel Polish

The reason the Rabbi feels that way is because in the Old Covenant, under the law, God was seen as unapproachable and mysterious, you could die by being in his presence and all that. Jews weren't even supposed to say his name I AM.

In the New Covenant, under Grace, the veil in the Holy of Holies tore in two when Christ died on the cross. This opened the way to direct communication with God.

Christ and the disciples and apostles encourage us to seek the will of God and his wisdom.

No, not everything about God is crystal Clear, his ways are still largely unknown. However, he does want us to know his will for our lives on a personal level and he offers wisdom about him and his ways to anyone who seeks it.

“If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him” (James 1:5)


"My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." (Colossians 2:2-3)

The Holy Spirit, who lives within the believers, will guide them into the discovery of truth:

“...when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth...” (John 16:13)

 

[BVS]

The reason the Rabbi feels that way is because in the Old Covenant, under the law, God was seen as unapproachable and mysterious, you could die by being in his presence and all that. Jews weren't even supposed to say his name I AM.

In the New Covenant, under Grace, the veil in the Holy of Holies tore in two when Christ died on the cross. This opened the way to direct communication with God.

Christ and the disciples and apostles encourage us to seek the will of God and his wisdom.

No, not everything about God is crystal Clear, his ways are still largely unknown. However, he does want us to know his will for our lives on a personal level and he offers wisdom about him and his ways to anyone who seeks it.

This may have some truth, but I believe his quote still stands even for those who know the NT.

I mean just look in this thread alone. You have some that claim the whole reason for this is that God was lonely, are those crystal clear motives?

We have others that claim they absolutely know the "levels" of heaven and how they work, are those spelled out Biblically?

Of course not to both of those, yet some claim to have such insight.

 

[Irvine511]

I don't think many people really choose to have faith (or not). Doctrine is certainly a choice, something one arrives at by reasoning (albeit none too thoroughly in some cases). But the bare fact of belief, disbelief, or keen uncertainty as to whether there's something greater than us and our reality out there--generally, I think that just is what it is.

that might be so in a general sense, but in this thread we're getting clear expressions of doctrine =faith. i agree that the sense of something "other" or something "out there" probably is pretty hard wired into humanity -- it's a likely reaction to the impossibility of understanding what happens when we die, the terrifying awareness of our impending doom -- the discussion in here has been very specific, and thus absolutely representative of a well-informed, entirely voluntary choice to believe in such a fashion.

 

[80sU2isBest]

This may have some truth, but I believe his quote still stands even for those who know the NT.

I mean just look in this thread alone. You have some that claim the whole reason for this is that God was lonely, are those crystal clear motives?

We have others that claim they absolutely know the "levels" of heaven and how they work, are those spelled out Biblically?

Of course not to both of those, yet some claim to have such insight.

Oh, I understand what you're saying. And I agree that certain mysterious things like the details of Heaven are for the most part unknowable to people on this side of eternity.

The reason I can say that is because the Bible doesn't go into great detail about Heaven. The scriptures tell us no sorrow, no tears, etc. But as far as what the place looks like, most of the little info we do have comes from the book of Revelation, and with all the various metaphorical things going on in that book, it would be difficult to know what's literal and what's not about that.

But I believe we can understand God's ways and his will for our life because I believe in Christ as the Son of God, and scriptures in his Testament tell us we can.

A primary way to discern whether a "revelation" might truly be from God is whether it is completely consistent with what we do know of God from scripture.

For instance, if some dude told me that God had revealed to you that your mission in life is to go out and get drunk every night, I would know that it was not God who gave him that revelation, because the scriptures tell us that being drunk is not a good way to live.

 

[80sU2isBest]

that might be so in a general sense, but in this thread we're getting clear expressions of doctrine =faith. i agree that the sense of something "other" or something "out there" probably is pretty hard wired into humanity -- it's a likely reaction to the impossibility of understanding what happens when we die, the terrifying awareness of our impending doom -- the discussion in here has been very specific, and thus absolutely representative of a well-informed, entirely voluntary choice to believe in such a fashion.

First, I want to ask "are we cool"? Do you believe me when I say that, like you, I too despise the awful view of God that you thought I might be espousing?

Now, on to the subject. If I'm understanding you correctly, the above is not accurate in my case. When I earnestly sought the truth of hell, I honestly wanted to uncover that hell was just some big mistranslation error.

And, to be perfectly honest with you, I still hope I'm wrong, even though I really don't think I am.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Great post 80s.
Personal revelation is real, and you experienced it after pondering and praying over a certain subject.

God knows us all individually whether we want to conceptualize that idea or not; he knows each of us by name -even down to the number of hairs we have on our heads.

King James Bible
But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows

He has a plan for each of us. The deal in this life to have faith in him, get in tune with Him and seek his wisdom in all you to do with your life- who you are to help, what type of occupation you should have etc, so that day when you do meet Him face to face, He will embrace you and say:

" Well done, [thou] good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord."


Matt 25:21
<>

Howdy Diamond, good to see ya, old Pal. Thanks for your encouragement. It means a lot to me.