Do you believe in hell?

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jonnytakeawalk

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If so how do you invision it? Is it a place of eternal torture and fire- wheeping and gnashing of teeth and the rest? Do you consider it to be a physical place or a state of existence?

For me while I want to be a Christian I still have trouble resolving a loving and just God as also being one who also sends most of his creation to eternal torture (Christian's may use the free will argument here but you name me someone who would freely choose an eternity of torture were they certain of it happening.)

I remember some Evangelicals being somewhat outraged when Obama made this quote about his Mother that they thought 'proved' he was not a Christian.... "he was the kindest, most decent, generous person that I have ever known," Obama said, according to the Times. "I'm sure she is in heaven, even though she may not have subscribed to everything that I subscribe to."

That they would rather Obama believe she was suffering for eternity in hell than be in heaven is pretty disgraceful.

(By the way I'm sorry if this seems an insensitive topic considering the tragedy in Japan but I guess death is all around us all the time.)
 
I find it just as likely as a eternity of bliss.

It's used as a control method of the masses. You tell someone that if they're good and believe/accept jesus, then you will go to a good place and see those you love and there's nothing bad.

That's a hell of an idea to get behind. But some people didn't believe, so you needed a way to get more support or following, so you say IF you don't do as the lord says, then you are cast into a horrible place for eternity to suffer for your sin(s).

And then in the same breath you'll be told God is Love.

If you have kids, or were a child obviously, and you goofed, maybe you threw a tantrum at your parents, or beat up a sibling, or had bad grades......your parents punish you, but they don't outcast you or hold it against you forever. So why would a God/Creator do the same?

I'm an Atheist and I'm finding it much harder to be accepted here in state/country. Though not surprising when the first 4 commandments are against my lack of belief, yet murder or adultery are listed 5th or 6th, so i get the feeling that being a critical thinker and using science and logic are actually worse than me killing someone.

I think Hell/Heaven is just another way for man to judge another, yet hide behind a higher power to do it. Much like sports heros or muscians thank god when they win an award, it's really just them saying "LOOK HOW GREAT I AM" but under the fake guise of humility.

Now if you make a mistake, someone can say "you're going to hell". Well excuse me but, fuck you. We all make mistakes, and for a majority of human beings, we have the emotion of remorse and an even bigger virtue of forgiveness.

If people would use more of that right away, rather than immediately think of what happens after their death, maybe we don't have the issues we are presnted with.
 
I find it just as likely as a eternity of bliss.

It's used as a control method of the masses. You tell someone that if they're good and believe/accept jesus, then you will go to a good place and see those you love and there's nothing bad.

That's a hell of an idea to get behind. But some people didn't believe, so you needed a way to get more support or following, so you say IF you don't do as the lord says, then you are cast into a horrible place for eternity to suffer for your sin(s).

And then in the same breath you'll be told God is Love.

If you have kids, or were a child obviously, and you goofed, maybe you threw a tantrum at your parents, or beat up a sibling, or had bad grades......your parents punish you, but they don't outcast you or hold it against you forever. So why would a God/Creator do the same?

I'm an Atheist and I'm finding it much harder to be accepted here in state/country. Though not surprising when the first 4 commandments are against my lack of belief, yet murder or adultery are listed 5th or 6th, so i get the feeling that being a critical thinker and using science and logic are actually worse than me killing someone.

I think Hell/Heaven is just another way for man to judge another, yet hide behind a higher power to do it. Much like sports heros or muscians thank god when they win an award, it's really just them saying "LOOK HOW GREAT I AM" but under the fake guise of humility.

Now if you make a mistake, someone can say "you're going to hell". Well excuse me but, fuck you. We all make mistakes, and for a majority of human beings, we have the emotion of remorse and an even bigger virtue of forgiveness.

If people would use more of that right away, rather than immediately think of what happens after their death, maybe we don't have the issues we are presnted with.

Yup!
 
I look at it this way:
Assuming there's a kind of life after death which depens on the previous one and that heaven is spending the whole eternity with God, then hell must be something opposite, so a place without God.
You decide where you go, during your life. God doesn't want to force anybody to choose heaven (that's why He gave people free will), so there must be an alternative place where people are left alone with their sins.
I find the vision of hell as a boiler full of tar etc. a metaphor. If the Bible was written nowadays, I bet that images describing hell would be more modern.
 
I look at it this way:
God doesn't want to force anybody to choose heaven (that's why He gave people free will), so there must be an alternative place where people are left alone with their sins.

This argument confuses me. Why would anyone not want to choose heaven if it is indeed where God is and where all the good we have in the world (love, compassion, etc) will also be?

If you do see God as a parent figure (and we are his confused little children) then like a parent figure surely in this case he should decide for us what is best (that we should spend eternity with him.)
 
To be honest I'm not sure what I believe anymore, but when I DID believe in heaven, I didn't believe it was a magical place up in the clouds. My understanding was that Jesus would return to earth to build a new heaven, here, because heaven = where Jesus is. Even if I believed in the idea of Jesus/God/some deity returning to earth to create a heaven here, I'm not sure I'd believe in hell. I think I subscribe to more of a "cold is the absence of heat" concept, so being in hell would be not being in heaven.
 
The dilemma described is quite accurate for most Christians. If the "saved" will go to heaven, then there must be an alternative location for those who are not.

However, I don't believe in the concept of an eternal soul (Full disclosure: my church does not teach the existence of an eternal soul, so I'm sure a big part of why I believe that way is because that's how I was taught. However, it makes a lot of sense to me as well in conceiving a loving God).

The whole rationale for the existence of hell is tied up in the belief in the eternal soul--it's debatable whether the two can be seperated. So what I believe is that when we die, that's it. There's no spirit floating around somewhere else. In that sense my faith has a very materialistic aspect to it--I have no problem with our existence being defined by chemistry etc and don't see it as conflicting with my belief in God. I do believe that there will be an opportuinity to live in heaven for eternity someday but I don't think anyone is there right now. When this world ends, those that opt out of heaven would simply cease to exist rather than be tormented in whatever manner for eternity.

To me the doctrine of hell is the worst thing ever to happen to the Christian faith. I don't blame people for not wanting anything to do with it, considering the type of God we are promoting. A God that would torment/allow torment for eternity is truly ugly and there's no compassionate parallel to such an approach in our human experience.

I'm sure there will be those who will declare that my beliefs are a false teaching, but I'm okay with that.
 
This argument confuses me. Why would anyone not want to choose heaven if it is indeed where God is and where all the good we have in the world (love, compassion, etc) will also be?

Ask murderers why they choose hell. Many people choose hell. It doesn't work like you say "I want to go to heaven" and it's done, you'll go there.

If you do see God as a parent figure (and we are his confused little children) then like a parent figure surely in this case he should decide for us what is best (that we should spend eternity with him.)

Your statement really limits God and people as well. God wanted people to be something more than his puppets. We have brains, free will and ability of choice.
Imagine that a man wants to get married. He can kidnap a girl and force her to live with him. But he also can ask her to do it and she can agree. Which situation describes a true love? This is the situation with God we're talking about.
 
Ask murderers why they choose hell. Many people choose hell. It doesn't work like you say "I want to go to heaven" and it's done, you'll go there.

Perhaps murders would choose hell, quite frankly I don't care what happens to murderers. According to Jesus there will be many more people that go to hell than go to heaven so the vast majority are not murderers but everyday regular sinners like you and me. Would these people really choose an eternity without love?

Your statement really limits God and people as well. God wanted people to be something more than his puppets. We have brains, free will and ability of choice.
Imagine that a man wants to get married. He can kidnap a girl and force her to live with him. But he also can ask her to do it and she can agree. Which situation describes a true love? This is the situation with God we're talking about.

That analogy doesn't quite work though when the consequences of the woman not accepting the mans invitation to live with him means she will be cut off from any form of love for eternity.

and in any case you're not talking about a choice that the majority of people are aware they're making.
 
The dilemma described is quite accurate for most Christians. If the "saved" will go to heaven, then there must be an alternative location for those who are not.

However, I don't believe in the concept of an eternal soul (Full disclosure: my church does not teach the existence of an eternal soul, so I'm sure a big part of why I believe that way is because that's how I was taught. However, it makes a lot of sense to me as well in conceiving a loving God).

The whole rationale for the existence of hell is tied up in the belief in the eternal soul--it's debatable whether the two can be seperated. So what I believe is that when we die, that's it. There's no spirit floating around somewhere else. In that sense my faith has a very materialistic aspect to it--I have no problem with our existence being defined by chemistry etc and don't see it as conflicting with my belief in God. I do believe that there will be an opportuinity to live in heaven for eternity someday but I don't think anyone is there right now. When this world ends, those that opt out of heaven would simply cease to exist rather than be tormented in whatever manner for eternity.

To me the doctrine of hell is the worst thing ever to happen to the Christian faith. I don't blame people for not wanting anything to do with it, considering the type of God we are promoting. A God that would torment/allow torment for eternity is truly ugly and there's no compassionate parallel to such an approach in our human experience.

I'm sure there will be those who will declare that my beliefs are a false teaching, but I'm okay with that.

I like
 
Perhaps murders would choose hell, quite frankly I don't care what happens to murderers. According to Jesus there will be many more people that go to hell than go to heaven so the vast majority are not murderers but everyday regular sinners like you and me. Would these people really choose an eternity without love?

First of all, we're all sinners, so both heaven and hell are full of sinners. The only difference is what they did with their sins. Choosing heaven is the process of overcoming our sinful nature.


That analogy doesn't quite work though when the consequences of the woman not accepting the mans invitation to live with him means she will be cut off from any form of love for eternity.

and in any case you're not talking about a choice that the majority of people are aware they're making.

Ok, I understand you at that point.
But if a person was forced to go to heaven, it wouldn't automatically mean he would be happy there. Eternity with somebody he didn't want to know (God)? In turn if God forced this person to love Him and be happy in connection with God's presence, then He would be the biggest egomaniac. That would be extremely artificial love and artificial happiness.
 
But God is forcing you to make a choice based on fear, and that's not really free will, it's playing the odds.

I can give you a choice; take me at my word that i'm a GOD and I'll give you an eternity of happieness. If you choose the other, I'm going to beat you with a baseball bat over and over and over and over.

So what would you choose?

You're fine to believe what you believe, I won't try to change your mind. But if there is a GOD, why does entry into His kingdom have to be on blind faith? True free will would mean there is actual proof of said God, given the rules, and then if you still choose to go on your own, then that's on you.

But to make it a mystery, you're forcing people to believe because of the fear of unknown. A loving person would never make a threat like that to someone they care about, so why would we accept our loving Creator that way? A true God by definition has everything, it created everything and is everything, therefore shouldn't need it's flawed creations to worship or pray to it. What could God need with our blessings or worship? It has everything, unless it's a ego thing.....which I suppose a God could have one.

And if you're fine with just going on faith, more power to you. I will continue to live my life as a good person, based on the core values of humanity, and in the end if that wasn't good enough for the Creator, then I will accept my fate. But I don't believe there is anything, so I'm not going to worry about what my death is going to bring....I'll be dead and incapable of knowing.
 
I want to believe that the traditional hell exists. This way evil people like Hitler, Pol Pot, and that Austrian father who locked his daughter up in a cellar and raped her for 24 years go there to be tortured.

But the way I see it, there is a human soul and you are in charge of it. I believe if you nourish your soul enough and bring it to life and close to God, you'll be with God in the end. If you don't take care of your soul, you'll cease to exist when you die.

That is how I make sense out of the thought of loving God sending people to eternal hell. I think people send themselves to hell. If it does exist, that's where you go if you don't take care of yourself.

I haven't really thought about much of the afterlife even though I should. Heck, I'm open to the idea of reincarnation.
 
Ok, I understand you at that point.
But if a person was forced to go to heaven, it wouldn't automatically mean he would be happy there. Eternity with somebody he didn't want to know (God)? In turn if God forced this person to love Him and be happy in connection with God's presence, then He would be the biggest egomaniac. That would be extremely artificial love and artificial happiness.

If God is love and compassion and all things good in the world then who would not be happy in this company? Murderers you said. Right, fair enough perhaps but everyday human beings that aren't psychopaths need love and they need God whether they know it or not. Sending them to hell for eternity is not the nature of a loving God. They did not send themselves there. No normal person would choose an eternity without love.
 
First of all, we're all sinners, so both heaven and hell are full of sinners. The only difference is what they did with their sins. Choosing heaven is the process of overcoming our sinful nature.




Ok, I understand you at that point.
But if a person was forced to go to heaven, it wouldn't automatically mean he would be happy there. Eternity with somebody he didn't want to know (God)? In turn if God forced this person to love Him and be happy in connection with God's presence, then He would be the biggest egomaniac. That would be extremely artificial love and artificial happiness.

I'm right with you in your argument on free choice. . .until you insist that the alternative is some form of hell. There, the argument for a loving God collapses upon itself as johnny as aptly pointed out.

I want to believe that the traditional hell exists. This way evil people like Hitler, Pol Pot, and that Austrian father who locked his daughter up in a cellar and raped her for 24 years go there to be tortured.

But the way I see it, there is a human soul and you are in charge of it. I believe if you nourish your soul enough and bring it to life and close to God, you'll be with God in the end. If you don't take care of your soul, you'll cease to exist when you die.

That is how I make sense out of the thought of loving God sending people to eternal hell. I think people send themselves to hell. If it does exist, that's where you go if you don't take care of yourself.

Doesn't God overseeing the torture of Hitler, Pol Pot etc, reduce Him to pretty much their level?

I don't see how anyone would choose an eternity of torment. I think those that choose not to be with God would rather not exist at all then live torment. The concept of choosing oblivion (as a ceasing of existence) at least has some corrolation to the human experience.

If God is love and compassion and all things good in the world then who would not be happy in this company? Murderers you said. Right, fair enough perhaps but everyday human beings that aren't psychopaths need love and they need God whether they know it or not. Sending them to hell for eternity is not the nature of a loving God. They did not send themselves there. No normal person would choose an eternity without love.

I think it's foolish to speculate on the ratio of saved to lost. Scriptures say that God does not anyone to be lost, and quotes by Jesus regarding the "broad" and "narrow" do not have to suggest that most everyone will be lost. (Sorry about the saved/lost jargon. I'm pretyt under the weather right now and too lazy not to use the Christianese).
 
Doesn't God overseeing the torture of Hitler, Pol Pot etc, reduce Him to pretty much their level?

It does, but that's me expressing how horrified I am about how evil some people can be; you just want to see some justice even if eternity in hell seems like too much justice.

I don't see how anyone would choose an eternity of torment. I think those that choose not to be with God would rather not exist at all then live torment. The concept of choosing oblivion (as a ceasing of existence) at least has some corrolation to the human experience.

I don't think people choose eternity of torment. I think some people aren't aware of what they are doing. I mean, some actions and behaviors can be a good ego boost but are not good for the soul.

The way I see it, humans have to achieve their superego, to use Freudian terms. Most humans are ego-centric but should obtain a higher self. Kind of like a nirvana in a sense. When they achieve that higher self, they achieve heaven, on earth and in the afterlife.

As I said before, I am open to reincarnation and I think its possible that those who do not obtain a higher self are born again and again until they do. But then again, I've had no experiences to say that reincarnation exists. To quote Dolly Parton, "I don't believe in this life and I didn't believe in my past life either".
 
My 2 cents - the whole "Good people go to heaven, bad people go to hell" thing is way too simplistic. If you're born into money and privelege, with a stable family environment and opportunities to do virtually anything you want in life (say like Bono's children) the overwhelming odds are you'll be a good caring person. And you'll go to heaven according to common wisdom. People become dysfunctional or "bad" by their circumstances, like being born into squalor and raised by an alcoholic single parent. If they then mug an old lady because they don't know any better, and that old lady dies, do they automatically deserve hell?
If we're talking about psycopaths and sociopaths, did these people choose to be evil or were they born with the brain chemistry to be like that? I have no idea what lies ahead, but I like to believe if there is a heaven and hell there are other ways of deciding where you end up instead of purely how you led your life.
 
It does, but that's me expressing how horrified I am about how evil some people can be; you just want to see some justice even if eternity in hell seems like too much justice.

I get that. I just happen to believe God is bigger than we are. . .that while we might be tempted to stooping to the level of the worst of the worst, He isn't.

My 2 cents - the whole "Good people go to heaven, bad people go to hell" thing is way too simplistic. If you're born into money and privelege, with a stable family environment and opportunities to do virtually anything you want in life (say like Bono's children) the overwhelming odds are you'll be a good caring person. And you'll go to heaven according to common wisdom. People become dysfunctional or "bad" by their circumstances, like being born into squalor and raised by an alcoholic single parent. If they then mug an old lady because they don't know any better, and that old lady dies, do they automatically deserve hell?
If we're talking about psycopaths and sociopaths, did these people choose to be evil or were they born with the brain chemistry to be like that? I have no idea what lies ahead, but I like to believe if there is a heaven and hell there are other ways of deciding where you end up instead of purely how you led your life.

Again, I just happen to give more credit to God that He would be just and fair and take all the circumstances you've mentioned into account.
 
It does, but that's me expressing how horrified I am about how evil some people can be; you just want to see some justice even if eternity in hell seems like too much justice.

To me that sounds like revenge, not justice. Justice (to me) is holding people accountable for their transgressions, not inflicting the same (or worse) damage upon them that they inflicted on others.

I just happen to believe God is bigger than we are. . .that while we might be tempted to stooping to the level of the worst of the worst, He isn't.

Agreed.
 
I'm right with you in your argument on
I think it's foolish to speculate on the ratio of saved to lost. Scriptures say that God does not anyone to be lost, and quotes by Jesus regarding the "broad" and "narrow" do not have to suggest that most everyone will be lost. (Sorry about the saved/lost jargon. I'm pretyt under the weather right now and too lazy not to use the Christianese).

What do you think Jesus means by the wide and narrow gates?

Just as a somewhat interesting aside, a church I went to during Christmas time had changed the lyrics to, 'Hark the Herald Angels sing.' The lyrics, 'and man will live forever more because of Christmas day' were now 'and man might live forever more because of Christmas day'

Gee really sucks the joy out of that song now doesn't it?! :|

Why not be more specific? 'and man might live forever more (if he is in the priviliged minority growing up in a western world who has actually heard the word while everyone else will suffer in eternal hell forever and ever and ever) because of Christmas Day!'

Ah Christmas joy! :heart:
 
What do you think Jesus means by the wide and narrow gates?

I think it has more do with the idea that it's easier to do the wrong thing, then the right the thing. It may very well imply a numbers situation, but I don't think it's useful for us to start making judgements about how many will be lost or saved based on that scripture. We're instructed not to judge and allowing ourselves to speculate on how many will go to heaven and how many won't strikes me as a type of judgement.

Just as a somewhat interesting aside, a church I went to during Christmas time had changed the lyrics to, 'Hark the Herald Angels sing.' The lyrics, 'and man will live forever more because of Christmas day' were now 'and man might live forever more because of Christmas day'

Gee really sucks the joy out of that song now doesn't it?! :|

Why not be more specific? 'and man might live forever more (if he is in the priviliged minority growing up in a western world who has actually heard the word while everyone else will suffer in eternal hell forever and ever and ever) because of Christmas Day!'

Ah Christmas joy! :heart:

No kidding! I don't see why it's not obvious to most Christians what a horrible God this is.
 
I have no great knowledge on all of this, but...

I understand that 'the rules' in regards to who goes where and why and when differ quite a bit between different strands of Christian faith. However - what would be a good guess on the % of people who have ever walked this earth, who have had absolutely no exposure to Christianity? Or have had only extremely limited exposure (awareness of its existence, but no real knowledge), or who have for one reason or another not lived a life where an understanding or choice has been available (childhood death, mental disability etc)?

I'd say that would cover... 90%+? At a complete guess? But it doesn't matter, as long as its above 50% (as it surely would be, easily) then there are, give or take a few details, a couple of Christian beliefs, that either way, make no sense:

(A) You are only 'saved'/heaven worthy, if you have made a conscious choice. Given a choice, accepted these beliefs. Anyone who casually disregards or specifically chooses against? Sorry. But also - anyone who never had even an opportunity to choose? Sorry. So at least over half, more likely the vast, vast majority of people who have ever walked this earth, condemned without even knowing it. No knowledge of it. No choice. No say.

(B) I know some believe that there would be some kind of mercy on those who never had such a choice, that there would be some separate kind of opportunity for a choice to be presented as part of some second coming scenario, or that 'innocents' get a free pass. So under this scenario, the vast majority of people who have ever walked this earth either get a free pass or heart-in-the-right-place/actions based judgement, which seems to run counter to, well, everything, or do actually get a more fair choice based on what would at the time be a far more clear, 'fact based' presentation of options. Again, seems to run against everything, seeing as that would have absolutely nothing to do with faith.

So in reality, either 90%+ of all of humanity are just flat out condemned to eternal hell or death - or - 90%+ of all of humanity either get into eternal heaven or life on a free pass, or get a choice under some significantly different and more easily acceptable conditions that run completely counter to everything that appears to be 'the point'. Only 10% are held accountable, given a choice, according to the real point or meaning or plan of it all.

Does any of that make sense?
 
I think most religions are a just a belated recognition of a preexisting state: human beings as a moral animal (ok, yes, the great apes, the elephants, the dolphins, but let's not get totally sidetracked).

It's like the British Empire granting the dominions their nationhood after some mysterious longstanding period in which they became that very thing, de facto.

So, to the extent that I think about it at all, I doubt very much that the overwhelming ranks of humans who lived prior to agriculture and settled towns and ritualised religion are damned by any divinity worth the name. I doubt there is in fact any such thing as Hell. It is a manmade concept. I am sure there are consequences, but that is not the same thing as the commonly-understood Hell.
 
I just kind of look at heaven the way I look at religion in general.

No one wants to be alone, whether in life or in death. The idea that we just cease to exist after 75 years on this planet troubles a lot of people, although not me personally.

I think religion (or Christianity, at least) is the manifestation of the needs of the human ego. The idea of repenting for one's sins as a get out of jail free card, the need to have a "purpose", the need to not be alone.

So it's either Jesus or shopping at American Apparrel, or the Red Sox, basically.
 
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