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Old 03-17-2011, 09:06 AM   #106
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I thought this thread didn't interest you, A_W.
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Old 03-17-2011, 09:36 AM   #107
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Explicit atheism has a huuuuuuuuge areola.
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Old 03-17-2011, 08:37 PM   #108
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press play>>>



I'm a rolling thunder, poutin rain
I'm comin' down like a hurricane
My lightning's flashing across the sky
You're only young but you're gonna die

I won't take no prisoners, won't spare no lives
Nobody's putting up a fight
I got my bell, I'm gonna take you to hell
I'm gonna get ya, Satan get ya


Hell's Bells
Yeah, Hell's Bells
You got me ringin' Hell's Bells
My temperature's high, Hell's Bells

I'll give you black sensations up and down your spine
If you're into evil you're a friend of mine
See my white light flashing as I split the night
'Cause if Good's on the left,
Then I'm stickin' to the right

I won't take no prisoners, won't spare no lives
Nobody's puttin' up a fight
I got my bell, I'm gonna take you to hell
I'm gonna get ya, Satan get you

Hell's Bells
Yeah, Hell's Bells
You got me ringin' Hells Bells
My temperature's high, Hell's Bells


Hell's Bells, Satan's comin' to you
Hell's Bells, he's ringing them now
Hell's Bells, the temperature's high
Hell's Bells, across the sky
Hell's Bells, they're takin' you down
Hell's Bells, they're draggin' you around
Hell's Bells, gonna split the night
Hell's Bells, there's no way to fight, yeah
Ow, ow, ow, ow
Hell's Bells


~AC/DC
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Old 03-18-2011, 12:33 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
To go back to the therapy notion, I don't think you can help people who don't want to be helped, or who don't admit they have a problem. I suppose that's why Jesus avoided the self-righteous who thought they had it figured out; they had no need for Him.

Having just watched Tom Shadyac's new documentary I AM, where he talks about all the things that are killing our souls (consumerism, competition, greed, etc), and how tuned out we are to it all, I think it's safe to say that few of us really know what's good for us. The problem, however, is that we're all being told we're all right, when the reality is far different...
Tooooooo true.

I don't understand those who claim to "have it all figured out". I don't get how you can, either way. Religious people talk all the time about how God works in mysterious ways and yet they claim they know about what he wants and asks and all that-how can that be if he's supposedly so mysterious? And atheists-I understand their point of view much more, but at the same time, there are mysteries in the world. They may or may not be attributed to a "god", per se, but the fact that there are things out there sometimes that can't always be explained away does lend itself to some interesting possibilities.

I just don't get why everyone feels the need to try and make everyone else see their point of view on this issue. Discussion and trying to understand is fine and well and good, but why can't people just let it end there? You can't force people to change their minds, especially with something as personal as this. What's the point of having followers who were forced to believe something rather than follow because they genuinely feel the same way you do?

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Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post
I'm a teacher, so I guess there's something in me that has to believe that redemption is possible for everyone. If I started dwelling the statastics or the statistically liklihood I wouldn't be very effective in my job. Sure, you know that the reality is that you can't save them all but that's not what you focus on.
I see nothing wrong at all with holding on to that kind of hope . One person's life improving is better than none at all. And if you can't help them out, there's always the possibility someone else will come along and pick up where you left off. Help comes in all forms.

My beliefs are totally mixed up anymore. I still hold on to some concept of a higher being, but I'm not even really sure why, because I have so many questions about that very topic myself. I don't believe in heaven and hell in the literal sense, I think they're both states of mind and everyone will experience them each at one point and time (and each mindset means different things for each person, I don't think it's a one size fits all sort of deal). I like the idea of reincarnation as a means to redeem or punish for whatever actions you take in life, I think it makes more sense to me than the heaven/hell punishment, but again, how possible it is, I don't know.

And yet, despite having so many questions, I don't feel "lost", rather, I feel pretty comfortable. I like leaving it all messy and unanswered. I think that's kinda how it's supposed to be. And I look forward to finding out the answers when the time comes (which, hopefully, won't be for a really, REALLY long time. I can wait).

I will say this, though: Sean, if I lived anywhere near you, I'd gladly go visit your church. Your teachings make it sound like my kind of place.

Angela
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Old 03-18-2011, 01:15 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by 80sU2isBest View Post
I said I was never going to argue in Free Your Mind again, and I won't. But this is a very important subject to me, so I wanted to input.

The Christians I know do not feel "special" because we believe we are going to Heaven. We feel grateful, because we know that it was Christ's death on the cross that provides the tickets, not our own works. But then again, none of us are Calvinists; none of us believe that God predestines some people to Heaven and some to Hell.

Also, we do not "want" there to be a hell. We believe there is a hell, but it grieves us to think of anyone going there.

But hell is not a place that God "sends" anyone to. According to the Bible, in fact, hell was created not for man, but for "the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41). However, people will go there who are not forgiven because their spirit is sinful, not clean. Sinful spirits cannot live in Heaven because light and darkness cannot abide together, and God cannot abide in the presence of sin. To have a clean spirit, one must be "born again", as Jesus said to Nicodemus. How to be born again? As Jesus said "believe upon him whom the Father hath sent".

But having that understanding doesn't make me feel better about people going to hell.

Please allow me to reveal some personal history. I myself am well off compared to many parts of the world. I have a roof over my head, am relatively healthy, and I have never gone a day without food in my belly (except for a 1 day fast, which I will never purposely do again, ha ha), But I am a very sensitive person toward other people who do go through those things, and about 4 years ago, I went through a long period of severe depression over things like that which I cannot control. A large part of my depression was the idea of hell, and that no matter how many people I told about Christ, I can't force anyone to accept him. People have free will, and that bothered me. I was severely depressed. I remember times when I stood in the shower falling to my knees and weeping my heart out, feeling as if my tears outnumbered the drops of water.

During this time period, I prayed to God, cried out to him for understanding of hell and reconciling it with the "God Is Love" exclamation of the Book Of John. I studied the subject thoroughly, hoping for evidence that the scriptures have been mistranslated and that spirits who have not been forgiven will just cease to exist when the body dies. I wanted there to be no hell. But I also wanted to find truth, no matter what it was. Sadly, I must report that I didn't find the evidence I sought, and therefore I conclude that hell does exist.

However, James 1:5 says "If you need wisdom, ask our generous God, and he will give it to you. He will not rebuke you for asking". I believe that God has answered my prayers starting 3.5 years years ago and has been giving me the wisdom I sought.

But what happened to me? Am I still as depreseed over the issue of hell as I was?

I have a vivid recollection of one particular night that started my healing in that area. I lay in bed one night, thinking and worrying over hell. I remember specifically thinking "If I were God, I would zap one last revelation into people's conscious the split second before they died, maybe a visitation from Christ saying "I am the Savior, as you have heard. Put your faith in me, before it's too late." As soon as that thought was thought, I remember another though, that I attribute to God: "Don't you think I love the lost even more than you do? I gave you the love you have for them. Don't you think I do everything possible to convince them of my love for them?"

At that moment, I felt peace wash over me, like a tidal wave. In the days, weeks, months, years that have followed, I believe God has granted me the following truths about hell. Note that none of these are "special exclusive revelations". Support for all of these can be found in the Bible.

(1) That God is perfectly able to deliver such death bed revelations to people. I believe he does. I do not necessarily believe he does to people who have spent their entire life actively rejecting the Gospel. But if he does, that's A-OK with me!

(2) When it comes to presenting the Gospel to people, God is not dependent on me nor is he limited by my human methods. God works in mysterious ways of which I don't understand. He is able to get the message out to those who grew up heavily influenced by other religions and belief systems. And he doesn't need my voice or the voice of anyone else to deliver that message. He doesn't leave anyone without ample opportunity. He loves us all and wants us all to come to him. 2 Peter 3:9: "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

(3) God leaves no stone unturned in saving people from the hell that an unclean/sinful spirit brings.

(4) And here's one that some Christians might not agree with. Because the Bible says that "he who seeks the truth will find it", I believe that anyone who is truly interested in God's will, righteousness (for righteousness' own sake, not ulterior motives) will indeed find Christ, and therefore, having that tender heart will put their faith in him and be saved.

There you have it, my input. I won't argue these points, as there is no possibility that I will change, believing that study of scripture and the revelation of God has given them to me.
Great post 80s.
Personal revelation is real, and you experienced it after pondering and praying over a certain subject.

God knows us all individually whether we want to conceptualize that idea or not; he knows each of us by name -even down to the number of hairs we have on our heads.

King James Bible
But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows


He has a plan for each of us. The deal in this life to have faith in him, get in tune with Him and seek his wisdom in all you to do with your life- who you are to help, what type of occupation you should have etc, so that day when you do meet Him face to face, He will embrace you and say:

" Well done, [thou] good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord."


Matt 25:21
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Old 03-18-2011, 09:24 AM   #111
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"I do not believe in a God whose will or motives are crystal clear to me. And as a person of faith, I find myself deeply suspicious of those who claim such insight."

-- Rabbi Daniel Polish
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Old 03-18-2011, 09:32 AM   #112
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Old 03-18-2011, 09:58 AM   #113
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It is a huge comfort to be able to say that I don't believe in any of this anymore. It's an enormous burden off my shoulders not having to waste time and mental resources on trying to understand the mind of a being that does not exist.
Much of my early life has been lost to that fruitless endeavor, but never again will I lie awake at night toiling over the attributes of god or trying to rationalize spiritual beliefs.

so, no, I most definitely do not believe in hell (outside of hell on earth.)
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:00 AM   #114
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:06 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diemen View Post
"I do not believe in a God whose will or motives are crystal clear to me. And as a person of faith, I find myself deeply suspicious of those who claim such insight."

-- Rabbi Daniel Polish
The reason the Rabbi feels that way is because in the Old Covenant, under the law, God was seen as unapproachable and mysterious, you could die by being in his presence and all that. Jews weren't even supposed to say his name I AM.

In the New Covenant, under Grace, the veil in the Holy of Holies tore in two when Christ died on the cross. This opened the way to direct communication with God.

Christ and the disciples and apostles encourage us to seek the will of God and his wisdom.

No, not everything about God is crystal Clear, his ways are still largely unknown. However, he does want us to know his will for our lives on a personal level and he offers wisdom about him and his ways to anyone who seeks it.

“If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him” (James 1:5)


"My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." (Colossians 2:2-3)


The Holy Spirit, who lives within the believers, will guide them into the discovery of truth:

“...when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth...” (John 16:13)
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:17 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by 80sU2isBest View Post
The reason the Rabbi feels that way is because in the Old Covenant, under the law, God was seen as unapproachable and mysterious, you could die by being in his presence and all that. Jews weren't even supposed to say his name I AM.

In the New Covenant, under Grace, the veil in the Holy of Holies tore in two when Christ died on the cross. This opened the way to direct communication with God.

Christ and the disciples and apostles encourage us to seek the will of God and his wisdom.

No, not everything about God is crystal Clear, his ways are still largely unknown. However, he does want us to know his will for our lives on a personal level and he offers wisdom about him and his ways to anyone who seeks it.
This may have some truth, but I believe his quote still stands even for those who know the NT.

I mean just look in this thread alone. You have some that claim the whole reason for this is that God was lonely, are those crystal clear motives?

We have others that claim they absolutely know the "levels" of heaven and how they work, are those spelled out Biblically?

Of course not to both of those, yet some claim to have such insight.
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:29 AM   #117
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I don't think many people really choose to have faith (or not). Doctrine is certainly a choice, something one arrives at by reasoning (albeit none too thoroughly in some cases). But the bare fact of belief, disbelief, or keen uncertainty as to whether there's something greater than us and our reality out there--generally, I think that just is what it is.


that might be so in a general sense, but in this thread we're getting clear expressions of doctrine =faith. i agree that the sense of something "other" or something "out there" probably is pretty hard wired into humanity -- it's a likely reaction to the impossibility of understanding what happens when we die, the terrifying awareness of our impending doom -- the discussion in here has been very specific, and thus absolutely representative of a well-informed, entirely voluntary choice to believe in such a fashion.
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:40 AM   #118
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This may have some truth, but I believe his quote still stands even for those who know the NT.

I mean just look in this thread alone. You have some that claim the whole reason for this is that God was lonely, are those crystal clear motives?

We have others that claim they absolutely know the "levels" of heaven and how they work, are those spelled out Biblically?

Of course not to both of those, yet some claim to have such insight.
Oh, I understand what you're saying. And I agree that certain mysterious things like the details of Heaven are for the most part unknowable to people on this side of eternity.

The reason I can say that is because the Bible doesn't go into great detail about Heaven. The scriptures tell us no sorrow, no tears, etc. But as far as what the place looks like, most of the little info we do have comes from the book of Revelation, and with all the various metaphorical things going on in that book, it would be difficult to know what's literal and what's not about that.

But I believe we can understand God's ways and his will for our life because I believe in Christ as the Son of God, and scriptures in his Testament tell us we can.

A primary way to discern whether a "revelation" might truly be from God is whether it is completely consistent with what we do know of God from scripture.

For instance, if some dude told me that God had revealed to you that your mission in life is to go out and get drunk every night, I would know that it was not God who gave him that revelation, because the scriptures tell us that being drunk is not a good way to live.
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:54 AM   #119
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that might be so in a general sense, but in this thread we're getting clear expressions of doctrine =faith. i agree that the sense of something "other" or something "out there" probably is pretty hard wired into humanity -- it's a likely reaction to the impossibility of understanding what happens when we die, the terrifying awareness of our impending doom -- the discussion in here has been very specific, and thus absolutely representative of a well-informed, entirely voluntary choice to believe in such a fashion.
First, I want to ask "are we cool"? Do you believe me when I say that, like you, I too despise the awful view of God that you thought I might be espousing?

Now, on to the subject. If I'm understanding you correctly, the above is not accurate in my case. When I earnestly sought the truth of hell, I honestly wanted to uncover that hell was just some big mistranslation error.

And, to be perfectly honest with you, I still hope I'm wrong, even though I really don't think I am.
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Old 03-18-2011, 11:03 AM   #120
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Great post 80s.
Personal revelation is real, and you experienced it after pondering and praying over a certain subject.

God knows us all individually whether we want to conceptualize that idea or not; he knows each of us by name -even down to the number of hairs we have on our heads.

King James Bible
But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows


He has a plan for each of us. The deal in this life to have faith in him, get in tune with Him and seek his wisdom in all you to do with your life- who you are to help, what type of occupation you should have etc, so that day when you do meet Him face to face, He will embrace you and say:

" Well done, [thou] good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord."


Matt 25:21
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Howdy Diamond, good to see ya, old Pal. Thanks for your encouragement. It means a lot to me.
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