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Old 03-14-2011, 11:02 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
Absolutely agree here.



To go back to the therapy notion, I don't think you can help people who don't want to be helped, or who don't admit they have a problem. I suppose that's why Jesus avoided the self-righteous who thought they had it figured out; they had no need for Him.

Having just watched Tom Shadyac's new documentary I AM, where he talks about all the things that are killing our souls (consumerism, competition, greed, etc), and how tuned out we are to it all, I think it's safe to say that few of us really know what's good for us. The problem, however, is that we're all being told we're all right, when the reality is far different...
I don't disagree with any of this, but perhaps you could articulate exactly what this implies about people going to hell?

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And i think that could sum up what we have going on in here.

Those of us who use science, logic, common sense, and whatever else is used to measure and test whats in the real world will never convince a believer that God/Heaven/Hell/etc does NOT exist.
I wouldn't argue with the assertion that there isn't emprical evidence for God, but your suggestion that only people lacking logic and common sense would be religious is condescending not to mention on untrue.

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Heaven sounds like a great place from descriptions (though an eternity is too long for me, hopefully there's a lot to do) if it were to be true.
Presuming excellent health and optimum personal circumstances, how long would be long enough for you?

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As i said before, I can't just pretend in something on blind faith. Tried that with Santa, and that turned out to be a disappointment.

I wouldn't suggest that you should believe out of "blind faith." There is an experiential (though not experimental) aspect to faith that we believers have that I think you either discount or assume is not there.


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speaking of that, funny how we can lie to kids about a man who travels the world on flying raindeer in one night, delivering gifts to good boys and girls until they get older and we admit it was just a story to make you behave.

Yet we continue to lie about a creator somewhere we can't see who created everything, and may or may not be invovled with everything, and if we're good and follow his 10 laws, we'll meet up with our loved ones in the next life.

Makes perfect sense to me.
Again, you're suggested that those of us who are believers are knowingly lying about our faith--saying that God exists when we know good and well he doesn't. Doesn't that strike you as a rather self-serving argument? (Incidentally, I don't discount your parallel to Santa Claus. I know most people view teaching your kids about Santa Claus as harmless, but ESPECIALLY as a believer, I find it quite harmful to teach my child about someone that I know isn't real. My kid may be the only one in preschool who doesn't believe in Santa, but that's okay with me).
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Old 03-14-2011, 11:05 PM   #62
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This thread doesn't interest me.
And yet how come I knew it was only a matter of time until you showed up here?

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Old 03-14-2011, 11:09 PM   #63
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Here's something I read last night, thoughts:
. . .and the other person I expected to show up sooner or later. . .
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Old 03-14-2011, 11:43 PM   #64
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Here's the deal brothers and sisters and why many get confused about Hell and Paradise.

1st off they both exist. However not the way most have been taught.
There are different realms, tiers and pockets of Hell as well as Paradise.

For example do you think a just and loving God would put the parking meter violator, income tax fudger in the same place as an unrepentant mass murderer or rapist?
Some Dogmatic Errant Christian Sects teach this man made doctrine and it is a wrong.
It is a scare tactic to control their parishioners and church members.

Others teach of cheap Grace, that all will be well, if we cheat on our spouses, commit larceny, as long as we invoke the name of Jesus on our death beds-all will be well. This is also incorrect, they site the thief on the cross and the conversation that Christ and he had and him being w Christ in Paradise together. Yes, they were in Paradise surely but that isn't Heaven, only a temporary Good Place where good souls go and are still waiting and being taught truths they weren't taught on earth, and when they progress in those truths then they can later enter Heaven.

All good Christians, Jews,Muslims, Buddists and even a few Atheists will be in Paradise as long as they were good honorable people on earth, did good deeds to their fellowman while here. They will continue to be taught truths about who God is, who Christ is and when they progress enough-they will eventually enter Heaven. God is fair and just this way.

Being that God is fair and just, many professed Christians who were hypocrites will not make it into Paradise because they won't be able to manipulate or obfuscate their way past God and His Son.
They may have lied and cheated on earth-but this is where it stops.
You cannot b-s your way past the Creator of you, who is also the author of all Truth.
Think of it as an interview with an all knowing, beautiful, perfected, compassionate Being who also has a built in accurate lie detector, so accurate, even before you think of trying to spit out a lie, you're lovingly shown the truth and you know that you have to come clean because you're standing next to All Truth, past present and future. These are they who will have to separate themselves from God, going to a place called Hell, but not the way we think.

The candy snitcher won't burn thru out all eternity or find him in the same place as the BTK killer, remember God is fair and just and will reward each of his children on the circumstances they found themselves in-fairly and squarely, and at that time one will not feel short changed: they'll know exactly what they earned and will go to that place and at that time, many may regret not doing better job on earth while they were here, but many will be surprised about how loving and forgiving God is for our foibles committed while here on earth as well.

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Old 03-15-2011, 12:14 AM   #65
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1. The FYM majority says something
2. <> and Iron Horse say something
3. ???
4. Spin wheels

I'm Christian and have beliefs that are founded in personal experiences that, with all due respect, trump the musings of those I bullshit with here at Blue Crack. I mean, damn, someone brought up the Santa Claus example earlier. What the hell is this, Antagonism 101? Junior Philosophy Club?

My faith fills a certain empty part of my existence and, regardless of whether or not it reflects true "reality," it is a reality to me, and my reality remains plausible enough to keep me straightjacket-free. I'm brainwashed? You're a tool. I'm happy, you're happy, we CoExIsT, it's all good. Not adding anything to the conversation here, but after 6 years of threads like this that amount to little more than a simple tallying of who occupies which side of the fence, no real discussion necessary, I'm content with cutting to the chase.
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Old 03-15-2011, 12:36 AM   #66
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I don't think your sins alone determine whether you go to hell or not, but your faith does. Someone who consciously rejects God and salvation through Jesus has already condemned themselves. God isn't sending them to hell, they have chosen their own path. Everyone has the chance to choose to accept forgiveness for their sins, but some don't. I know that's not politically correct or whatever, but that doesn't really matter.

Hell was created for the devil and his angels, who rebelled against God; if you rebel against God, then guess who's side you're on? Whether you realize it or not, that's what you have chosen. You say that a loving God wouldn't allow people to go to hell? That's why Jesus died for your sins. God in His love made a way for you to be saved. If you are too proud or arrogant to admit that you need saving, then that's your choice, too.

Offended yet? I never come into this forum, but sometimes things just need to be said. If there is a force of Good, then there must be a force of evil as well. It's a law of the universe; for everything there is an opposite. Human beings are flawed creatures, but God still loves us and gives us all have a chance for redemption.
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Old 03-15-2011, 01:08 AM   #67
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I don't disagree with any of this, but perhaps you could articulate exactly what this implies about people going to hell?
Actually, what I think it means is that an awful lot of people who walk around saying, "I'm good, thanks" (and this includes an awful lot of religious people) may wind up being eternally separate from God, while those who have the simple wisdom to cry out "Have mercy on me" may wind up the closest.

The sincerest believers I know don't come to faith in God because they're perfect and have it all worked out. The most sincere ones I know, know their own brokenness, and know enough to cry out for help.
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Old 03-15-2011, 02:35 AM   #68
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Actually, I'd suggest that the "Christian notion" that Hell is not a punishment but a choice is a relatively new idea--a sort of "kindler, gentler" reteaching of the doctrine of hell. Traditionally, I think most Christians have viewed Hell as a place of punishment.
Absolutely agree with all of this.

I honestly think in some way CS Lewis helped spurn the whole, 'hell is a choice' thing when he said, 'the doors of hell are locked from the inside and not outside.' To say it's our choice makes the whole idea a lot more swallowable somehow.

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It is really the eternal aspect of hell that is so problematic to me.
Yes
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Old 03-15-2011, 02:53 AM   #69
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Whether you realize it or not, that's what you have chosen.
See this bothers me and not because it's not PC like you suggest but it goes against Christian's teachings of a loving and merciful God. Is it just to sentence someone to an ETERNITY of torture for a choice they didn't even know they were making? Seriously?


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Offended yet? I never come into this forum, but sometimes things just need to be said.
No but I can understand how some people are and how it might turn them off Christianity. What about people who have had loved ones pass away who were not Christian? If that was me I could never come to a religion that taught my loved one was currently now being tortured for eternity.
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Old 03-15-2011, 06:16 AM   #70
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A free man thinks of death least of all things; and his wisdom is a meditation not of death but of life - Spinoza

This thread doesn't interest me.
I like this.

(I'm very much an atheist but I do find it interesting reading some of the interpretations here. Do what you wanna do, be what you wanna be etc, just don't force it on others.)
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Old 03-15-2011, 09:49 AM   #71
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Yes.
Well that's a pretty simplistic belief... interesting, but I think it misses the mark. I think you'll find very few that would agree with you.

Please don't have kids just because you're seeking friendship.
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Old 03-15-2011, 01:13 PM   #72
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generally speaking, i admire this thread. i think nathan and sean are having a nicely rational discussion. i also find i'm unable to relate to much of the content, because i'm not coming from the same starting off point as the two of them.

i'll simply add that we've see what happens when people disregard the present and become obsessed with earning their way into an advantageous placement in the next world:

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Old 03-15-2011, 01:58 PM   #73
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i'll simply add that we've see what happens when people disregard the present and become obsessed with earning their way into an advantageous placement in the next world:
I agree, Irvine, and I think this is why people have often misinterpreted the message of Jesus as some kind of future endgoal. A lot of people have thus interpreted Christianity as a simple "get out of jail free" card, and in so doing have missed the fact that most of Jesus' sermons had to do with the here and now. "Treat others as you would have them treat you," "judge yourself before judging others," "if you want to be greatest in the Kingdom of God you must be the servant of all," etc -- the most important being "love God, and love your neighbor as yourself."

Jesus didn't shy away from discussions of Heaven (Paradise) and Hell (Hades, Gehenna or Sheol), but He did seem to teach that (to steal a line from "Gladiator") "what we do in life, echoes in eternity." The here and now matters.
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Old 03-15-2011, 08:17 PM   #74
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I don't think your sins alone determine whether you go to hell or not, but your faith does. Someone who consciously rejects God and salvation through Jesus has already condemned themselves. God isn't sending them to hell, they have chosen their own path. Everyone has the chance to choose to accept forgiveness for their sins, but some don't. I know that's not politically correct or whatever, but that doesn't really matter.

Hell was created for the devil and his angels, who rebelled against God; if you rebel against God, then guess who's side you're on? Whether you realize it or not, that's what you have chosen. You say that a loving God wouldn't allow people to go to hell? That's why Jesus died for your sins. God in His love made a way for you to be saved. If you are too proud or arrogant to admit that you need saving, then that's your choice, too.

Offended yet? I never come into this forum, but sometimes things just need to be said. If there is a force of Good, then there must be a force of evil as well. It's a law of the universe; for everything there is an opposite. Human beings are flawed creatures, but God still loves us and gives us all have a chance for redemption.
I agree w the core message of this, but do think a Universal God will judge each of us on a case by case basis.

God will not look upon a murdering 13 yr old suicidal Muslim terrorist young man as he would perhaps a Timothy McVeigh-with the same judgement, agreed?

I promise you, He won't.

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Old 03-15-2011, 09:37 PM   #75
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. The most sincere ones I know, know their own brokenness, and know enough to cry out for help.


King James Bible
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

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