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Old 03-29-2011, 05:46 PM   #391
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i think this applies to any and all faith traditions when their adherents appear to think they have all the answers. faith has to be rooted in doubt, otherwise it's delusion
I would say that faith is rooted in questions, which is a little bit different than doubt. If I have doubt in anything, it is in the world as it is. As if all we can see is all there is. Faith, according to the author of the book of Hebrews, is defined as "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." I don't have it all figured out -- we're all on a journey -- but like I said in an earlier post, I've yet to find something that undoes my faith.
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Old 03-29-2011, 06:16 PM   #392
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I would say that faith is rooted in questions, which is a little bit different than doubt. If I have doubt in anything, it is in the world as it is. As if all we can see is all there is. Faith, according to the author of the book of Hebrews, is defined as "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." I don't have it all figured out -- we're all on a journey -- but like I said in an earlier post, I've yet to find something that undoes my faith.


when you put it like this -- that faith is more hope -- then it seems to add credence that faith functions more to keep us from going mad at the thought of our impending doom and an eternity of nonexistence. "gosh, i really hope this isn't it."

but i'm more interested in your reaction to what was the actual point of my post -- that such specificity (rooms, realms, judgments, etc.) is little more than snake oil. to me, it seems to reveal a lack of real knowledge (which none of us have anyway) and is evidence of things we tell ourselves rather than a reality that cannot yet be seen or perceived.
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Old 03-29-2011, 06:23 PM   #393
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look, i understand there are different faith traditions and people choose to believe different texts, but can you also understand how someone would look at what you just wrote and think that it's preposterous and totally made up?

i don't mean this as a criticism of you specifically, i'm just using this as a jumping off point. it applies to everyone.
no, and
please..

don't
jump..




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King James Bible
There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
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1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you
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Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection
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Old 03-29-2011, 06:45 PM   #394
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when you put it like this -- that faith is more hope -- then it seems to add credence that faith functions more to keep us from going mad at the thought of our impending doom and an eternity of nonexistence. "gosh, i really hope this isn't it."
I don't know. I think the hope of the human heart is rooted in reality. When I met my wife, for example, I found the one I'd been hoping for. I'm sure it's the same for you and Memphis. We are as capable of well-placing our hope as mis-placing it. I look at my faith and hope as well placed, because I don't miss the rest of the verse -- "substance" and "evidence", which I have experienced.

Quote:
but i'm more interested in your reaction to what was the actual point of my post -- that such specificity (rooms, realms, judgments, etc.) is little more than snake oil. to me, it seems to reveal a lack of real knowledge (which none of us have anyway) and is evidence of things we tell ourselves rather than a reality that cannot yet be seen or perceived.
Here you and I agree. Jesus had to speak in our language, and put complex, eternal spiritual realities into a context we could understand. The reality on the other side may be far grander than we can imagine on this side, but the poetry of the Scriptures does not make them any less true.
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Old 03-29-2011, 07:25 PM   #395
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To me, hope - no matter how you define it - is not an acceptable criteria for accepting a belief.

It was suggested that one may experience "all that I ever hoped for" when meeting the person who would later be a wife/husband/partner. But isn't it at least possible that under a different set of circumstances this could have been an entirely different person? Don't we in these cases retrofit our hopes to match up with the present. The self-fulfilling prophecy.

In other words, unless you really believe that there is only one person in the world who is "meant" for you (i.e. soul mate), then you must believe that there are many possibilities out there. Many soul-mates.

Am I making sense?

If the above statement does make sense, how can hope in something justify it as truth?

I cannot believe in some out of hope
Nor can I believe in something out of fear (i.e. pascal's wager)

I do not think my faith will ever be restored - and I'm 100% sure it would never be restored in a theistic God. Deism is one road I could have went down when I started questioning my beliefs, but it's too late for even that now I think.
Only an undeniable phenomenon directly experienced, or corroborated by several skeptical minds could sway me now.
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Old 03-29-2011, 08:05 PM   #396
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It was suggested that one may experience "all that I ever hoped for" when meeting the person who would later be a wife/husband/partner. But isn't it at least possible that under a different set of circumstances this could have been an entirely different person? Don't we in these cases retrofit our hopes to match up with the present. The self-fulfilling prophecy.
When I went on my first date with my wife, I had not already chosen her, but somehow when I met her, I found the things I'd been looking for. What I hoped for is what I needed. Like I said earlier, we can have hope that is well-placed or mis-placed. But that doesn't mean that hope is valid or invalid, only that the object of our hope is valid or invalid.

I think faith and love are very similar a lot of times. We know they are true not because they line up according to some intellectual and rational basis, but because we know it with our heart, spirit, soul. I don't think that's where faith (or love) ends -- but I do think that's where it starts, a lot of times.
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Old 03-29-2011, 08:50 PM   #397
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this talk of hope drove me to look up a favourite quote of mine.
Here is the very interesting thing:
I googled this quote using quotation marks and received just one return. This one return was a post of mine here on interference in 2002!

"Irony is the attendant of hope and hope is the fuel of innocence"

I read that line once, and I have never forgotten it.

The book was about the Great War.

Anyway, on a different note, I do appreciate your thoughts, and I do hope to find some validation of the concepts of spirit and soul in the experience of love someday, even if I still regard them as natural phenomenons. But that is a topic for another day.

EDIT. I realize now why there was only one return. Because I had originally quoted it incorrectly. In my search I entered "hope is the fuel of innocence", and this is what I wrote all those years ago. The correct quotation is, 'Irony is the attendant of hope, and the fuel of hope is innocence'
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Old 03-29-2011, 09:18 PM   #398
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'the fuel of hope is innocence'
There's a reason Jesus said that we have to have the faith of a child...
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Old 03-29-2011, 10:19 PM   #399
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There's a reason Jesus said that we have to have the faith of a child...
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Old 03-29-2011, 10:47 PM   #400
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I'm not so sure I agree that we, as adults, should have the faith of a child
I do think we should have the inquisitiveness of a child though
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Old 03-29-2011, 11:03 PM   #401
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I think faith and love are very similar a lot of times. We know they are true not because they line up according to some intellectual and rational basis, but because we know it with our heart, spirit, soul. I don't think that's where faith (or love) ends -- but I do think that's where it starts, a lot of times.

which, i think, makes them distinct from hope. i didn't hope for a boyfriend. in a way, i made my relationship happen because i was ready for a relationship. there's no need to get into my dating past, but i was at a point in my life where i was ready to really be with someone, and i was dating with that intention. i met Memphis, and i wasn't like "you are the one i've been waiting for" it was more "i believe we could be great together." what i saw in him was less the fulfillment of my boyfriend dreams and more the potential for there to be an "us," so to speak, that we could be perfect for each other, and there's been quite a bit of work (as i'm sure you know) in making it all work. maintaining a relationship that fulfilles the heart, spirit and soul has required a solid rational and intellectual basis.

ok, so after writing that, here's a distinction: i think we hope for things to happen that we cannot control. i hope i don't get cancer. i hope everyone in my family stays healthy. but i don't have faith that i won't get cancer, nor do i have faith that everyone in my family stays healthy. rather, i have faith that if i work hard then i will be rewarded at my job. i have faith that if i treat Memphis the way i'd like to be treated, we'll be together for another 6 years. my faith would be tempered by the acknowledgment that things happen far beyond my control and can alter my end result, but i have faith that i can at least affect the outcome. whereas when i hope, i admit that i have no control and am powerless against the incoming tide.

where that gets us, i don't know, but that's what's occurred to me as i start my second glass of wine.
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Old 03-29-2011, 11:05 PM   #402
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I'm not so sure I agree that we, as adults, should have the faith of a child
I do think we should have the inquisitiveness of a child though


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Old 03-30-2011, 12:45 AM   #403
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I'm not so sure I agree that we, as adults, should have the faith of a child
I do think we should have the inquisitiveness of a child though
I don't disagree. This is why I said that faith, like love, starts with the heart; it may not end there, nor should it, but it's where it starts...

Or at least that's what I think after a martini...
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Old 03-30-2011, 12:52 AM   #404
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i think we hope for things to happen that we cannot control. i hope i don't get cancer. i hope everyone in my family stays healthy. but i don't have faith that i won't get cancer, nor do i have faith that everyone in my family stays healthy. rather, i have faith that if i work hard then i will be rewarded at my job. i have faith that if i treat Memphis the way i'd like to be treated, we'll be together for another 6 years. my faith would be tempered by the acknowledgment that things happen far beyond my control and can alter my end result, but i have faith that i can at least affect the outcome. whereas when i hope, i admit that i have no control and am powerless against the incoming tide.

where that gets us, i don't know, but that's what's occurred to me as i start my second glass of wine.
As always, thoughtful. We should both post perhaps with some alcohol in us more often.

If I was going to parse scripture, I would point out that faith works alongside hope, and that faith confirms -- in its own way -- some of the things we hope for. I agree -- there are some things over which we have no control, and those things remain in the realm of hope. But there are other things we hope for that can, perhaps, result in faith. Maybe hope points us in the direction of faith? If faith is the substance of things hoped for, then faith is the result of hope.

For example, to use your situation -- you didn't hope to meet Memphis, but you did, perhaps, hope not to grow old alone. Can you control that outcome? To a certain extent, no, but the hope not to be alone created the space for a relationship which then gave you the faith that you now have in your relationship. So I don't see the dichotomy that you do.
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Old 03-31-2011, 03:27 PM   #405
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I think my main question now is, why should I believe the scripture is anything other than a books some guys wrote 1500-2000 years ago? It seems to be the basis of all faith and all references of faith. Why is it more than just a book humans wrote?
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