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Old 03-29-2011, 12:46 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by yolland View Post
^ It's from the Book of Mormon

There is a common Hebrew word (olam) which is often--inappropriately--translated as "eternal" in various Bible editions, though that's probably neither here nor there in this case.
Close.

Actually: Doctrine and Covenants.

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Old 03-29-2011, 01:03 PM   #377
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Ah, okay. I'd just Googled a phrase from it and typed whatever the first thing that came up said. Not a sound method.

What text is it referring to when it says "...it is written 'endless torment'?"
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Old 03-29-2011, 02:33 PM   #378
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Ah, okay. I'd just Googled a phrase from it and typed whatever the first thing that came up said. Not a sound method.

What text is it referring to when it says "...it is written 'endless torment'?"
Endless torment is actually a term in the Book of Mormon, a book that Joseph had translated recently. In the New Testament it's known as: "fire and brimstone".

However, as we already know and more to the point: mainline Christianity teach's one burns in hell endlessly-eternally etc.

But hear God teaches Joseph a new truth and clarifies the matter by telling Joseph that his name is "Endless and Eternal" and these names are actually only different titles or names of Him.

One shouldn't think that it won't feel excruciatingly painful for those that take this route though, because here's what else God told Joseph about those that wind up in that place for a while:

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But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

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Old 03-29-2011, 02:57 PM   #379
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How would you respond to a Christian who suggests that most people do intrinsically believe that there are eternal ramifications for their actions (hell) and likens it to people having a knowledge of the link between smoking and cancer but still in despite of this continue to smoke?
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Old 03-29-2011, 03:03 PM   #380
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I was browsing through, and read about how God doesn't intervene in genocides around the world. What exactly can God do to stop a genocide?
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Old 03-29-2011, 03:42 PM   #381
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I was browsing through, and read about how God doesn't intervene in genocides around the world. What exactly can God do to stop a genocide?
What do you mean?

Many preach that God is all powerful and can do anything... do you not believe this?

If you take the OT literally he used floods to wipe away most of humanity, so ending a genocide should be easy.
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Old 03-29-2011, 03:44 PM   #382
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How would you respond to a Christian who suggests that most people do intrinsically believe that there are eternal ramifications for their actions (hell) and likens it to people having a knowledge of the link between smoking and cancer but still in despite of this continue to smoke?
I would agree w that statement. We all have a built in spiritual barometer built inside of us.

I would also add that there are many different degrees of glory in heaven and once a unrepentant person is shown what he could of done on earth differently, when he constantly chose to ignore his conscience or God's prompts while here on earth-he will go to a lesser kingdom than the obedient and repentant person, who followed God's promptings on earth.

So the key is to do things right while here.



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Old 03-29-2011, 03:45 PM   #383
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What do you mean?

Many preach that God is all powerful and can do anything... do you not believe this?

If you take the OT literally he used floods to wipe away most of humanity, so ending a genocide should be easy.
Again, this goes back to the whole notion of free will. There are certain things that God has chosen not do -- one is staying the hand of man.
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Old 03-29-2011, 03:48 PM   #384
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I understand that, I was just trying to understand what Pac Mule was asking.
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Old 03-29-2011, 03:49 PM   #385
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I would agree w that statement. We all have a built in spiritual barometer built inside of us.

I would also add that there are many different degrees of glory in heaven and once a unrepentant person is shown what he could of done on earth differently, when he constantly chose to ignore his conscience or God's prompts while here on earth-he will go to a lesser kingdom than the obedient and repentant person, who followed God's promptings on earth.

So the key is to do things right while here.



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I guess the reason I still don't really understand the analogy is the fact that the links between smoking and lung cancer are backed up by tangible evidence- there are medical statistics to support the claims. There is no tangible evidence to support the link between unrepentant sin and eternal hell outside of what's written in the Bible.
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Old 03-29-2011, 03:51 PM   #386
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If all things were tangible there would no room for faith development.

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Old 03-29-2011, 04:00 PM   #387
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If all things were tangible there would no room for faith development.

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That doesn't mean you can go about comparing your own faith to universal facts supported by evidence.
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Old 03-29-2011, 04:21 PM   #388
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My true believeing is, Hell is the world we live in now!
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Old 03-29-2011, 04:36 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by jonnytakeawalk View Post
That doesn't mean you can go about comparing your own faith to universal facts supported by evidence.
Also, no one lives with lung cancer for eternity, and people who are cavalier about death are able to be so because death is a certainty, for everyone.
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If you take the OT literally he used floods to wipe away most of humanity
Not only that, but for the ancient Hebrews, who didn't think in terms of eternal rewards or punishments, devastating military defeats could themselves be punishments from God, who 'raises the hand of your enemy against you' or 'delivers you into the hands of your enemies' in retribution for your collective misdeeds.
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Old 03-29-2011, 05:12 PM   #390
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I would also add that there are many different degrees of glory in heaven and once a unrepentant person is shown what he could of done on earth differently, when he constantly chose to ignore his conscience or God's prompts while here on earth-he will go to a lesser kingdom than the obedient and repentant person, who followed God's promptings on earth.


look, i understand there are different faith traditions and people choose to believe different texts, but can you also understand how someone would look at what you just wrote and think that it's preposterous and totally made up? like, one thing we know is that no one knows what happens when we die. we can assume, make inferences, speculate, whatever. but the specificity and certitude on display make me less likely to take it seriously and more likely to think that it's totally preposterous and totally made up.

and this isn't specific to you, i promise. i think this applies to any and all faith traditions when their adherents appear to think they have all the answers. faith has to be rooted in doubt, otherwise it's delusion, and the most powerful thing to me is when we acknowledge that we don't know things, that we try to glean truth for ourselves from complex material rather than pretending we know truth for everyone else.

i don't mean this as a criticism of you specifically, i'm just using this as a jumping off point. it applies to everyone.
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