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Old 03-25-2011, 11:29 AM   #346
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In what way does God intervene?
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Old 03-25-2011, 11:42 AM   #347
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In what way does God intervene?


my guess is that the only way the bible could be "true" is that God intervened through the power of the Holy Spirit with it's authors and made sure they wrote the truth because God wanted to make himself known to us and that's why he became incarnate and it was important to write all that down so we have a way of telling other people about it.

otherwise, it all kind of falls down. right?

(sorry, i know i wasn't asked ... )
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Old 03-25-2011, 12:11 PM   #348
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Um, actually, the whole basis of Christianity is rooted in the idea of an intervening God. So....
Come on, be realistic. He can't help BOTH football teams win on Sunday night
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Old 03-25-2011, 12:49 PM   #349
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He could, but sometimes the answer is "No." My guess is he says yes to 50% of the prayers.
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Old 03-25-2011, 12:59 PM   #350
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Do you really think God cares about sports?
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Old 03-25-2011, 12:59 PM   #351
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In what way does God intervene?
Jesus, for starters.
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Old 03-25-2011, 01:00 PM   #352
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Do you really think God cares about sports?
Depending on which side of the MA state line you're on, God is either for or against the Yankees. (...he said, wearing a Red Sox cap.)
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Old 03-25-2011, 01:09 PM   #353
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my guess is that the only way the bible could be "true" is that God intervened through the power of the Holy Spirit with it's authors and made sure they wrote the truth because God wanted to make himself known to us and that's why he became incarnate and it was important to write all that down so we have a way of telling other people about it.
I'll never forget a wedding where I was sitting with a conservative Christian. When she found out what I did, she told me flat-out that I lie for a living. It seemed -- then and now -- like a very small-minded way to live. Most people don't get particularly bent out of shape about Picasso's paintings not being a literal interpretation of reality, because they understand that there is a truth even in the abstraction. As C.S. Lewis said, just because something is a myth doesn't mean it's not true.

I take anything that is inspired as being from God; as a result, I think that God inspired the Scriptures the same way that (I believe) He inspires poetry, art, music, etc.

(From dictionary.com)
Inspiration - c.1300, "immediate influence of God or a god," especially that under which the holy books were written, from O.Fr. inspiration , from L.L. inspirationem (nom. inspiratio ), from L. inspiratus , pp. of inspirare "inspire, inflame, blow into," from in- "in" + spirare "to breathe" (see spirit).
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Old 03-25-2011, 01:26 PM   #354
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Well then your post isn't really representing your point well at all, because I'm still reading it as, "The driver is ignoring the warnings, and if only he'd listen, he'd avoid the bridge."
You've ascribed some pretty dark motives to those who feel the need to evangelize; I felt this came from a misunderstanding about how 80's and other Christians view heaven and hell. You seemed to presume that this was just a "viewpoint" that Christians hold that they feel they must foist upon others in order to make themselves feel good, etc. I was simply arguing that if a person really believes "the bridge is out" then it's entirely possible that they might be trying to inform you of that out of sincerity and genuine concern for your well being.

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The essential question is that if I die a virtuous man who never accepted Christ, would I go to hell? That's what I want to know.
I'm not going to answer for 80's on this one, but I can tell you my opinion. My opinion is no, you would not.

In general, I think it's unwise to speculate about the eternal fate of any person good or bad. I believe God judges the heart, not how we appear to be on the outside. That's something no person can do, and indeed have been warned not attempt: "Judge not. . ."

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It's odd that thinking and saying that somebodies beliefs are in all likelihood wrong is considered worse than believing who do no harm but don't have faith will go to hell.

I would like to know have I claimed absolute knowledge?
In response to your first statement, why would you care if someone thinks you're going to hell, if you don't believe in it? After all if the believer's philosophy is based on your acceptance of a particular religious doctrine and not on whether you are a decent person, then they are not necessarily even impugning your character. On the other hand suggesting that those that desire to evangelize can only be motivated by self-interest etc is, to me, a worse accusation. It is "real-world" here and now suggestion about a person's character rather than about someone's fate in a nebulous afterlife that no one regardless of belief has any proof about.

In regards to your second question, no, you haven't used that type of language. But your implication in all of your posts is quite clear. There's nothing particularly questioning or doubtful about your point of view, or your summation of those who believe. You're not particuarly humble in promoting your point of view; you don't leave room for the possiblity that you might be wrong in any meaningful way. So while, you might not through around religious terms like "Absolute Knowledge" or "Truth", essentially you seem as much to have made up your mind as any fundamentalist Christian.

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sure there are a bunch of authors that wrote the gospels over a period of years
and yes they were compiled, translated, and edited by different groups for their own purposes
but keep in mind that there is an all powerful, loving God that had the ability to make sure wisdom and truth ended up on the pages to enlighten his greatest creation mankind, so they can know his love and have their chance for salvation.
I knew deep was being sarcastic. Ironically, he pretty much summed up what I believe about the Bible. That's a remarkable level of disdain, to see a particular point of view as so ridiculous that it can be summed up accurately and presented as sarcasm.

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Um, actually, the whole basis of Christianity is rooted in the idea of an intervening God. So....
I guess that can of worms has been opened. . .

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Originally Posted by Canadiens1131 View Post
Come on, be realistic. He can't help BOTH football teams win on Sunday night
Just because I believe in an intervening God doesn't mean I believe he intervenes in everything. Certainly not sports (or reality shows. . .).
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Old 03-25-2011, 01:43 PM   #355
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I'll never forget a wedding where I was sitting with a conservative Christian. When she found out what I did, she told me flat-out that I lie for a living. It seemed -- then and now -- like a very small-minded way to live. Most people don't get particularly bent out of shape about Picasso's paintings not being a literal interpretation of reality, because they understand that there is a truth even in the abstraction. As C.S. Lewis said, just because something is a myth doesn't mean it's not true.

I take anything that is inspired as being from God; as a result, I think that God inspired the Scriptures the same way that (I believe) He inspires poetry, art, music, etc.

(From dictionary.com)
Inspiration - c.1300, "immediate influence of God or a god," especially that under which the holy books were written, from O.Fr. inspiration , from L.L. inspirationem (nom. inspiratio ), from L. inspiratus , pp. of inspirare "inspire, inflame, blow into," from in- "in" + spirare "to breathe" (see spirit).


and, to me, this makes much more sense than close textual analysis. "inspired by" is much different than "inerrant work of" -- i'd think the believer, as much as the skeptic, would appreciate at least some wiggle room. you'd go nuts if you tried to follow it like an Ikea manuel.
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Old 03-25-2011, 01:57 PM   #356
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Ikea manuel.
Have they already run out of Swedish names for their stuff?
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Old 03-25-2011, 02:15 PM   #357
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and, to me, this makes much more sense than close textual analysis. "inspired by" is much different than "inerrant work of" -- i'd think the believer, as much as the skeptic, would appreciate at least some wiggle room. you'd go nuts if you tried to follow it like an Ikea manuel.
Nowhere in the Scriptures does it call itself "inerrant." That seems to be a human characteristic laid over the Scriptures. The closest is 2 Timothy 3:15-17, which says, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

As a result, by the standard I shared above, I have no problem believing that the Scripture is inspired by God.
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Old 03-25-2011, 02:50 PM   #358
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Nowhere in the Scriptures does it call itself "inerrant."

i agree, those aren't your words, but they are words that have been used by various FYM posters over the years.




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As a result, by the standard I shared above, I have no problem believing that the Scripture is inspired by God.

so Scripture is inspired by God because Scripture says it is inspired by God?

while there's no way to prove that it isn't -- i.e., you can't prove that it's not not inspired by God -- do you see that this is pretty much the basis for skepticism/agnosticism/atheism?
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Old 03-25-2011, 03:05 PM   #359
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Do you really think God cares about sports?
He didn't care about genocide (or he cries about it alone to himself and how his creations have run a muck), so I thought sports would keep the mood light.
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Old 03-25-2011, 03:06 PM   #360
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so Scripture is inspired by God because Scripture says it is inspired by God?
The question at hand was the nature of the Scriptures and whether or not they were "true." Because I believe that most true things (regardless of their literal truth -- art, music, etc) are inspired by God, I include Scripture as well. But it isn't true simply because it says so; it's true because I have found myself on its pages -- both who I am and who I hope to be.
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