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Old 03-24-2011, 07:54 PM   #331
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So, are you saying you don't think there are any virtuous people who have never accepted Christ?

I'm still not seeing where I misinterpreted you. At all.
it's ok, i can't get my head around his/her comments either...
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Old 03-24-2011, 07:58 PM   #332
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Whether the bridge is out or not is irrelevant to my post. My point was what the two people in question believe about the bridge. My purpose was not to argue about whether the driver is ACTUALLY in mortal danger, but to point out the perspective of you who believes the bridge is out.
Well then your post isn't really representing your point well at all, because I'm still reading it as, "The driver is ignoring the warnings, and if only he'd listen, he'd avoid the bridge."
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I wouldn't be bothered in the slightest. There are a number of posters that "know" with certainty that my beliefs are irrational, silly, and that my insistence upon believing them is foolish and perhaps even harmful. That's far worse than anything 80's has implied about those who are not believers, and yet, I don't take issue with people who feel that way. From my perspective, their view is just an opinion to which they are entitled. I take no offense, nor do I feel I need to.
Fair enough. Those are your thoughts, I suppose. I think I would be a jackass to tell you you've been fooled by your religious leaders, regardless of whether I think that are not. I personally believe many people get into religion for good reasons or for respectable reasons, and to sweep everyone into a generalization about being fools following a carrot and a stick would be logically irresponsible as well as foolishly misguided. Just as I think people saying virtuous men will eventually accept Christ are foolishly misguided.
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No. He believes that all good ultimately resides with God in Christ. Therefore those who respond to Good, Truth, Love, whatever you want to call it, or responding to Christ whether they know it or not. It's condescending only in the sense that he believes that all goodness and virtue have one ultimate Source. It is the presence of Christ in someones life (whether recognized or not) that make someone virtuous. Of course no one is perfect, but that's where Christ's sacrifice covers us all, whether Christian or not. I don't know if I would go as far as 80s in assuming that everyone would eventually "become a Christian" but besides that point, I essentially agree with him.
But that is what he is saying. He is assuming everyone would accept Christ if they were truly virtuous. That's what he has said multiple times while saying he hasn't said it, which is confusing the hell out of me.

The essential question is that if I die a virtuous man who never accepted Christ, would I go to hell? That's what I want to know.
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Old 03-24-2011, 08:14 PM   #333
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"The essential question is that if I die a virtuous man who never accepted Christ, would I go to hell? That's what I want to know."



My reply to this is based on my Christian faith.

"a virtuous man"

We are all failures. None of us are perfect. We have all done bad things and it is a battle that, those of us aware, struggle with daily.

The good news of Jesus is that he paid for our failures, our sins, with his life.

I'm not even going to try to explain what he had to go through to give us a way to be free from our wrongdoings, but I believe he did.

It is why I am a Christian.
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Old 03-24-2011, 11:11 PM   #334
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It's odd that thinking and saying that somebodies beliefs are in all likelihood wrong is considered worse than believing who do no harm but don't have faith will go to hell.

I would like to know have I claimed absolute knowledge?
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Old 03-25-2011, 12:05 AM   #335
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I would like to know have I claimed absolute knowledge?

agreed. there's an equivocation going on that i don't think holds any water. no atheist or agnostic is pretending to know the answers, but some believers certainly are. so to present this as "this is what you believe and this is what i believe" isn't quite accurate.
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Old 03-25-2011, 01:24 AM   #336
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Just to interject.

I've always wondered how those who interpret the Bible even semi-literally do so seriously. Isn't it basically a centuries-long game of telephone, passing the Word of God farther and farther down the chain?
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Old 03-25-2011, 01:58 AM   #337
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sure there are a bunch of authors that wrote the gospels over a period of years
and yes they were compiled, translated, and edited by different groups for their own purposes
but keep in mind that there is an all powerful, loving God that had the ability to make sure wisdom and truth ended up on the pages to enlighten his greatest creation mankind, so they can know his love and have their chance for salvation.
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Old 03-25-2011, 02:26 AM   #338
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keep in mind that there is an all powerful, loving God that had the ability to make sure wisdom and truth ended up on the pages to enlighten his greatest creation mankind, so they can know his love and have their chance for salvation.
this
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Old 03-25-2011, 03:06 AM   #339
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God never wrote the Bible or had anything to do with it. Even if you believe in a God, there's no way he wrote the Bible. The only way you think he wrote the Bible is if you believe in an intervening God, and if you believe in an intervening God ... well, that's a whole 'nother can of worms.
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Old 03-25-2011, 04:47 AM   #340
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this
oh right?! i thought deep was being sarcastic!
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Old 03-25-2011, 06:02 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post
From my perspective, their view is just an opinion to which they are entitled. I take no offense, nor do I feel I need to.
I think I can claim not to have approached the topic like that, and in respect to not taking offense I agree with you, just in that case the other way round, i.e. a poster saying as much as "I don't wish you going to hell, but I believe that for you as a non-believer you will be sent to hell."

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No. He believes that all good ultimately resides with God in Christ. Therefore those who respond to Good, Truth, Love, whatever you want to call it, or responding to Christ whether they know it or not. It's condescending only in the sense that he believes that all goodness and virtue have one ultimate Source. It is the presence of Christ in someones life (whether recognized or not) that make someone virtuous. Of course no one is perfect, but that's where Christ's sacrifice covers us all, whether Christian or not. I don't know if I would go as far as 80s in assuming that everyone would eventually "become a Christian" but besides that point, I essentially agree with him.
That's the reason why I asked if it was for the here or for the afterlife. I think now it's become a bit obsolete, as 80s changed his perspective on it. If he believed that the truly virtuous person might only find out this "truth" after he had died, then it would be more easily understandable. If it's about the here, I think you need to understand that for me or PFan as people who do not believe (even though, in both cases, we have been exposed to the Chrisitian belief and therefore could make an informed decision* when we opted out), but also for people who come from another faith such a position is very problematic. And as Irvine pointed out, for us it's rather a strange concept that the billions of individuals roaming the earth should, in the end, come to the same, and the only one, insight, if they had been "truly virtuous".


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In response to your first question, see above. In response to your second question, I don't think that 80's understanding (which, incidentally he maintains is merely his opinion) allows for such an option. For someone to be truly virtuous and yet reject the source of all virtue is an impossibility.

To be frank, I don't think 80's is pushing to convert anyone on this thread. I do think he would like to be correctly understood (even if in correctly understanding him,you still conclude he's wrong).
True, the difference was rather, for him the source would always be Christ, for me, the source depends on the person and what s/he believes in.
I never saw him as trying to convert anyone, just stating his position and arguing for what he believes to be ultimately true. As anyone should.
I don't think anyone in this thread so far actively attempted to convert anyone else, neither the believers nor the non-believers. We share our positions and try to understand why the other person comes to their belief on particular points. But of course that's not always such an easy process.

*May sound a bit confusing. Of course whether you believe or you do not believe is as little a matter of choice as is whether you are hetero- or homosexual. It is somewhere within you. But there is some sort of process involved in which you question your (non-)belief and then reconcile it with yourself.
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Old 03-25-2011, 09:04 AM   #342
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oh right?! i thought deep was being sarcastic!


he was.
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Old 03-25-2011, 09:35 AM   #343
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he was.
ahh i knew it!
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Old 03-25-2011, 10:58 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by mama cass

oh right?! i thought deep was being sarcastic!
Well...I feel ridiculous now
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Old 03-25-2011, 11:24 AM   #345
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God never wrote the Bible or had anything to do with it. Even if you believe in a God, there's no way he wrote the Bible. The only way you think he wrote the Bible is if you believe in an intervening God, and if you believe in an intervening God ... well, that's a whole 'nother can of worms.
Um, actually, the whole basis of Christianity is rooted in the idea of an intervening God. So....
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