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Old 03-24-2011, 06:32 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by 80sU2isBest View Post
I never said that "truly virtuous people are "the ones who accept Christ". A lot of nonvirtuous people accept Christ as Savior. You don't have to be virtuous to come to Christ.
But you put it like it's an inevitable result of being virtuous, that eventually they will accept Christ.

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My belief is that truly virtuous people will not go to hell because they will accept Christ at some point.
Why will truly virtuous people accept Christ at some point? And if a person does not accept Christ at some point, has he not been truly virtuous?
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Old 03-24-2011, 06:34 PM   #317
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Wow, that is condescending. You are literally saying there are no truly virtuous non-believers.
That accusation honestly doesn't make any sense in the context of what I wrote.

I wrote:
I believe that every single person who lives a virtuous life for virtuosity's sake itself will at some point come to meet Christ and will put his faith in Christ

If I were saying that only Christians are virtuous, I would have written it like this, which makes no sense whatsoever.

I believe that every single person who lives a virtuous life for virtuosity's sake itself is a Christian and will at some point come to meet Christ and will put his faith in Christ

Look at the words "will at some point ... put his faith in Christ". If I believed that only Christians are virtuous, why would I write that these virtuous Christians will one day come to accept Christ? If they're Christians, they've already accepted Christ.

Do you understand now that I am saying that my belief is that truly virtuous nonChristians will at some point accept Christ?
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Old 03-24-2011, 06:38 PM   #318
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Do you understand now that I am saying that my belief is that truly virtuous nonChristians will at some point accept Christ?
thereby becoming Christians, no?
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Old 03-24-2011, 06:40 PM   #319
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In the here or afterlife?
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Old 03-24-2011, 06:53 PM   #320
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But you put it like it's an inevitable result of being virtuous, that eventually they will accept Christ.

Why will truly virtuous people accept Christ at some point?
Thank you for asking. I will explain why in detail. But first, I'll say this:

I am not sure of this belief, like I am of the things that are explicitly stated in the Bible. On this thing, I will definitely state "my opinion".

Now, moving on to the explanation:

I partially base this belief on verses like these:

"You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13)

and

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you." (Matthew 7:7)

I believe that a truly virtuous life is a form of seeking truth. And since I believe that all who seek truth will find Truth, I believe that all who are sincerely virtuous will find God and Truth.

Actually Vince, you've made me consider something about my beliefs. I'm glad you posed the question to me, to help me see that I need to rethink it.

After further consideration, I amend this belief.

I do not believe that is an inevitability that all who live virtuous lives will one day accept Christ.

I do believe, however, that those who live sincerely virtuous lives are in effect seeking truth in life, and according to the Bible, those who seek will find. If they accept Christ is up to their free will.

Thank you.
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Old 03-24-2011, 06:54 PM   #321
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Do you understand now that I am saying that my belief is that truly virtuous nonChristians will at some point accept Christ?

do you think Ghandi accepted Christ?
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Old 03-24-2011, 06:56 PM   #322
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thereby becoming Christians, no?
Yes, when a person accepts Christ, he becomes a Christian.

I was a "virtuous" person before I became a Christian. I was caring, thoughtful and moral. But I wasn't perfect. And no one is.
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Old 03-24-2011, 07:02 PM   #323
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do you think Ghandi accepted Christ?
If I had read that question before Vince's "inevitability" question caused me to rethink my belief, I would have said Yes, I think he did.

But now all I can say is that I can't say with any certainty at all where Ghandi spends eternity.

I do believe that at some point before he died, he found Truth, if indeed he sought it, as most people think he did. And when he found Truth, he certainly had the opportunity to accept it or reject it.

I believe there is a high possibility that he did accept Christ, and that I will one day see Ghandi in heaven. It would greatly please me.
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Old 03-24-2011, 07:04 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by 80sU2isBest View Post
Thank you for asking. I will explain why in detail. But first, I'll say this:

I am not sure of this belief, like I am of the things that are explicitly stated in the Bible. On this thing, I will definitely state "my opinion".

Now, moving on to the explanation:

I partially base this belief on verses like these:

"You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13)

and

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you." (Matthew 7:7)

I believe that a truly virtuous life is a form of seeking truth. And since I believe that all who seek truth will find Truth, I believe that all who are sincerely virtuous will find God and Truth.

Actually Vince, you've made me consider something about my beliefs. I'm glad you posed the question to me, to help me see that I need to rethink it.

After further consideration, I amend this belief.

I do not believe that is an inevitability that all who live virtuous lives will one day accept Christ.

I do believe, however, that those who live sincerely virtuous lives are in effect seeking truth in life, and according to the Bible, those who seek will find. If they accept Christ is up to their free will.

Thank you.
Thanks for clarifying, and I'm glad I could maybe shed some more light on this topic even for yourself.
I also think most people are seeking some truth, some more actively, others more passively. And many people are very virtuous. But I do not think that for all people the truth, or the result of their virtuosity, will be Christianity, or Christ. I do belief a Muslim can be very virtuous, in fact, Muslims can be very virtuous, and in the end the truth for them may be Mohammed. Same goes for Jews, and their truth is again not Christ. Especially this will be the truth for all who do not even know Christianity exists, even though their number is getting smaller by the day. And same goes, of course, for us atheists.
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Old 03-24-2011, 07:05 PM   #325
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Okay guys, I'm out of here for a few days. I work for myself and did not manage my time effectively because I was so engrossed in this stimulating conversation. I need to get some work done, so I will be back next week. I just wanted to tell you beforehand, because I didn't want anyone to think they were being ignored.
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Old 03-24-2011, 07:06 PM   #326
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Yes, when a person accepts Christ, he becomes a Christian.
yes i am aware of that, but, you see, you're clearly contradicting yourself...
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Old 03-24-2011, 07:17 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by 80sU2isBest View Post
If I had read that question before Vince's "inevitability" question caused me to rethink my belief, I would have said Yes, I think he did.

But now all I can say is that I can't say with any certainty at all where Ghandi spends eternity.

I do believe that at some point before he died, he found Truth, if indeed he sought it, as most people think he did. And when he found Truth, he certainly had the opportunity to accept it or reject it.

I believe there is a high possibility that he did accept Christ, and that I will one day see Ghandi in heaven. It would greatly please me.


all i can say is that i cannot relate to this. it doesn't make any sense to me at all, and it seems amazing to me that you could think that you are right and the rest of the world is wrong, or that the rest of this big, complex, amazing world filled with equally complex, amazing people will come to see that you are right (not that you are a better person, but that your beliefs are accurate, maybe that's a better way to say it) in some moment of revelatory truth before they die.

that just doesn't reconcile with reality as i understand it.
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Old 03-24-2011, 07:21 PM   #328
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Your entire post works only under the assumption that the bridge is out.
Whether the bridge is out or not is irrelevant to my post. My point was what the two people in question believe about the bridge. My purpose was not to argue about whether the driver is ACTUALLY in mortal danger, but to point out the perspective of you who believes the bridge is out.

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What if I said that I truly believed you guys needed to be "saved" from your religious leaders, and that I was doing it only because I have the knowledge about it and need to inform you, purely because I'm looking out for you guys?
I wouldn't be bothered in the slightest. There are a number of posters that "know" with certainty that my beliefs are irrational, silly, and that my insistence upon believing them is foolish and perhaps even harmful. That's far worse than anything 80's has implied about those who are not believers, and yet, I don't take issue with people who feel that way. From my perspective, their view is just an opinion to which they are entitled. I take no offense, nor do I feel I need to.

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Wow, that is condescending. You are literally saying there are no truly virtuous non-believers.
No. He believes that all good ultimately resides with God in Christ. Therefore those who respond to Good, Truth, Love, whatever you want to call it, or responding to Christ whether they know it or not. It's condescending only in the sense that he believes that all goodness and virtue have one ultimate Source. It is the presence of Christ in someones life (whether recognized or not) that make someone virtuous. Of course no one is perfect, but that's where Christ's sacrifice covers us all, whether Christian or not. I don't know if I would go as far as 80s in assuming that everyone would eventually "become a Christian" but besides that point, I essentially agree with him.

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Why will truly virtuous people accept Christ at some point? And if a person does not accept Christ at some point, has he not been truly virtuous?
In response to your first question, see above. In response to your second question, I don't think that 80's understanding (which, incidentally he maintains is merely his opinion) allows for such an option. For someone to be truly virtuous and yet reject the source of all virtue is an impossibility.

To be frank, I don't think 80's is pushing to convert anyone on this thread. I do think he would like to be correctly understood (even if in correctly understanding him,you still conclude he's wrong).
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Old 03-24-2011, 07:47 PM   #329
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There are a number of posters that "know" with certainty that my beliefs are irrational, silly, and that my insistence upon believing them is foolish and perhaps even harmful. That's far worse than anything 80's has implied about those who are not believers

really? he's implied that we will either have a conversion experience, like him, or go to hell. that does seem much worse than anything i've said about religious beliefs potentially being sources of emotional abuse.



Quote:
To be frank, I don't think 80's is pushing to convert anyone on this thread. I do think he would like to be correctly understood (even if in correctly understanding him,you still conclude he's wrong).

on this i agree. absolutely. he has not tried to convert, just to explain, but i think that he's been more than met halfway.
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Old 03-24-2011, 07:49 PM   #330
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Do you understand now that I am saying that my belief is that truly virtuous nonChristians will at some point accept Christ?
So, are you saying you don't think there are any virtuous people who have never accepted Christ?

I'm still not seeing where I misinterpreted you. At all.
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