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Old 03-24-2011, 05:09 PM   #301
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I guess those "new atheists" (whatever that is) are forming their own religion then.

I view discussing religion a bit like discussing music. I love U2 to hell, but I don't discuss it. I will talk about it, I might even show clips if someone asks me to, but I won't tell them "You have to watch this!" nor am I getting into a debate with anyone who doesn't like their music. I don't understand them, but I guess that goes vice versa.
Like this Bostonian guy at the music quiz I attended who started with "And now the most childish band ever" and played One. I met him several times after and didn't feel the need to talk to him. If I did, I would not care the least bit to discuss U2 with him.
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Old 03-24-2011, 05:09 PM   #302
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So, yes, you believe that people who do not believe in Christ are going to hell, no matter how virtuous they are?
I believe that works and a virtuous life is not what saves a person.

You are oversimplifying what I said.

My belief is that truly virtuous people will not go to hell because they will accept Christ at some point.
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Old 03-24-2011, 05:13 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by 80sU2isBest View Post
The first person I focused on as far as salvation was myself. I decided to do something about it and put my faith in Christ. Now that's done. According to the Bible, those who put their faith in Christ will spend eternity in Heaven. My faith is in Christ, so according to the Bible I am going to Heaven.

Now my focus is on spreading the Gospel so that others can go to Heaven.

If I got saved and then didn't tell a soul how they could get saved, that wouldn't be love at all.

I don't know if you were referring to me, of it were just a general statement. But I don't cast stones. T don't bring up anyone's personal sins. I have no right to. The Bible even tells me that it is not my right to judge the world. I bring up sin on a global level - ie: we have all sinned. And I do that not to judge people for committing sins; I commit sins as well. I bring that up to try to show people that we all need a Savior.
Well, I believe it takes more than just faith to get to the pearly gates. I also don't believe the Bible is absolute word of God, so I don't see how we can discuss the afterlife here.
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Old 03-24-2011, 05:13 PM   #304
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I don't believe in hell.

Truth is, I have no idea what comes after death and I don't believe that anyone else out there has any idea either. This used to bother me a lot when I was younger - where did grandma go, what happened to my beloved dog, etc. But now, I don't find it to be a pressing matter in my life. I try to be a good person and live as happily as possible. If there is nothing after this, fine. If there is something, well we'll be sorted out at that point.

All this back and forth on this thread doesn't bother me to be honest. The faithful can believe what they want. The only thing that I ask of them is that once I assert that I don't believe that I am "lost" or "hungry" or whatever metaphor they are using at the moment, they should respect that and walk away. I believe that they have no idea as to what happens after this life, much like I don't, and so there is no basis on which they could convert me anyway.
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Old 03-24-2011, 05:15 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by 80sU2isBest View Post
I believe that works and a virtuous life is not what saves a person.

You are oversimplifying what I said.

My belief is that truly virtuous people will not go to hell because they will accept Christ at some point.
So, if someone believes firmly that Jesus is the Messiah, accepts the Holy Spirit, but sits around and does not help the needy and/or is not virtuous is going to Heaven?

This type of belief drives people away from Christianity.
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Old 03-24-2011, 05:24 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by 80sU2isBest View Post
My belief is that truly virtuous people will not go to hell because they will accept Christ at some point.
Wow, that is condescending. You are literally saying there are no truly virtuous non-believers.
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Old 03-24-2011, 05:26 PM   #307
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Wow, that is condescending. You are literally saying there are no truly virtuous non-believers.
I don't think that is what he was saying at all.
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Old 03-24-2011, 05:27 PM   #308
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Wow, that is condescending. You are literally saying there are no truly virtuous non-believers.
No, that's not what I'm saying. And I think you know that.
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Old 03-24-2011, 05:33 PM   #309
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How is it not? You're saying truly virtuous people are the ones who accept Christ, in your view.
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Old 03-24-2011, 05:38 PM   #310
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Maybe it's to do with the word in the languages. If I translate it into German, the German equivalent is perfectly neutral to religion. So for me it would also sound a bit questionable, if someone said a truly tugendhaft (virtuous) person is going to accept Christ. Maybe you could elaborate on that, 80s?
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Old 03-24-2011, 05:46 PM   #311
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Virtue just means good.
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Old 03-24-2011, 06:05 PM   #312
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If being 'truly virtuous' is not what saves Christians, and Christians (as 80s suggested earlier) aren't particularly better (meaning, presumably, more virtuous) than other people, than I don't understand why 'truly virtuous' non-Christians should be especially well-placed to get the message, so to speak. That seems to be saying they're more worthy of being saved, which appears contradictory.
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Old 03-24-2011, 06:06 PM   #313
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Yeah, Tugend is also a positive characteristic of a person. Being tugendhaft means to heed these good, positive characteristics. Like the famous German virtues, such as being punctual, reliable and aiming for perfection. So I would feel funny if someone told me that because of this I will accept Christ at some point in my life. The inversion of the argument, to me, would be, if I never accept Christ I cannot possibly have been virtuous. So that's why I think it needs elaboration.
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Old 03-24-2011, 06:14 PM   #314
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i've pretty much just gone ahead and said this. because i've seen "faith" destroy families and friendships.
me too, my own family (parents and siblings) included, and, yes, it is truly horrendous
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Old 03-24-2011, 06:25 PM   #315
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How is it not? You're saying truly virtuous people are the ones who accept Christ, in your view.
I never said that "truly virtuous people are "the ones who accept Christ". A lot of nonvirtuous people accept Christ as Savior. You don't have to be virtuous to come to Christ.
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