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Old 03-24-2011, 04:10 PM   #286
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OK. So you're bothered by the internalized guilt or grief of the believer and how that motivates them, rather or more than by their belief that others will go to hell unless they get saved?


i am bothered, firstly, by the certitude, and the implicit sanctimony -- intended or not -- in that certitude. faith, by definition, requires doubt. and i don't see much of that.

second, and i have seen this first hand, i am concerned that many believers are emotionally abused by their faith. obviously, the most salient example in my life is the turmoil and angst that religious parents often feel when their children come out. my child is going to hell! how awful that must be for them. they've been blackmailed by a faith system to reject their own children. that's abuse. very recently, i've seen friendships ended because of this very reason.

likewise, if you fall into a 7-month depression over what your religion tells you is going to befall billions of people alive on the planet, doesn't that speak to the problems with the belief itself? why wouldn't you trust your gut and your conscience over (highly subjective, endlessly disputed) words on paper?
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Old 03-24-2011, 04:12 PM   #287
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What if I said that I truly believed you guys needed to be "saved" from your religious leaders, and that I was doing it only because I have the knowledge about it and need to inform you, purely because I'm looking out for you guys?


i've pretty much just gone ahead and said this. because i've seen "faith" destroy families and friendships.

and why? because, at the end of the day, what people do fear is what we're talking about here: hell.

they're so scared of doing something wrong and being sent to hell that they're willing to destroy the present.
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Old 03-24-2011, 04:19 PM   #288
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My point about homosexuality is rooted in fact: science. That's why I defend it so strongly. Flybabe stated that homosexuals made a choice, and that's factually not true.
Let's go back to the beginning. Who started the discussion on homosexuality in this thread? It was not Flybabe, It was you. You made flippant remark about God and homosexuals out of the thin blue air. You were not simply defending your viewpoint. You made it an issue in the first place.
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Old 03-24-2011, 04:20 PM   #289
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What if I said that I truly believed you guys needed to be "saved" from your religious leaders, and that I was doing it only because I have the knowledge about it and need to inform you, purely because I'm looking out for you guys?
You would be as welcome to say it as others would be as welcome to ignore it or debate it but I don't see why you would take offense to it.
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Old 03-24-2011, 04:24 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by 80sU2isBest View Post
Let's go back to the beginning. Who started the discussion on homosexuality in this thread? It was not Flybabe, It was you. You made flippant remark about God and homosexuals out of the thin blue air. You were not simply defending your viewpoint. You made it an issue in the first place.
Your issue seemed to be with how "strong" I was in defending my viewpoint. My original post wasn't a strong defense, just an observation. So, is your probably my style of posting or that I brought it up altogether? I'm not sure what your issue here is. And anyway, I don't really think this is relevant to the discussion in any way.
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Old 03-24-2011, 04:27 PM   #291
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i've pretty much just gone ahead and said this. because i've seen "faith" destroy families and friendships.

and why? because, at the end of the day, what people do fear is what we're talking about here: hell.

they're so scared of doing something wrong and being sent to hell that they're willing to destroy the present.
I've seen it happen too, and I think it's fucking awful, but I don't think it's the case in every situation, so I don't think it's fair to uniformly ask the question of every religious person simply because they're religious. Just as I don't think it's fair to uniformly feel the need to "save" every atheist simply because they're not.
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Old 03-24-2011, 04:27 PM   #292
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You would be as welcome to say it as others would be as welcome to ignore it or debate it but I don't see why you would take offense to it.
They should take offense to it. It would be asinine of me to ask.
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Old 03-24-2011, 04:34 PM   #293
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What if I said that I truly believed you guys needed to be "saved" from your religious leaders, and that I was doing it only because I have the knowledge about it and need to inform you, purely because I'm looking out for you guys?
Honest truth is that JWs come to my house to talk to me frequently. Honestly, I don't get mad and offended that they think I'm lost. I actually appreciate that they care enough to try to convert me. Sometimes I have nice discussions with them, sometimes I just politely excuse myself. But I never get mad and offended that they are trying to reach out to me. I just don't.
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Old 03-24-2011, 04:46 PM   #294
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I actually appreciate that they care enough to try to convert me.
I'm a cynic. I don't think they care, I think that anyone proselytizing, or trying to "save" the "lost" from eternal damnation are doing it out of self-interest. It's like they're working on commission with God, and the more they try to spread the good word, the better standing they'll get and it ensures them a spot in heaven.
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Old 03-24-2011, 04:50 PM   #295
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If an atheist leads a virtuous life filled that improves the happiness of the world and doesn't accept Christ into their hearts before they die do you think that they will go to hell?
It seems to me that many people (believers and nonbelievers alike) try to live virtuous lives for ulterior motives (for fame, to make money, to deceive people, etc.)

However, I believe that every single person who lives a virtuous life for virtuosity's sake itself will at some point come to meet Christ and will put his faith in Christ. I partially base this belief on the verse that says "seek and you will find".

I believe that it is not the virtuous life that will save the person, but the putting faith in Christ that will save the person.
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Old 03-24-2011, 04:51 PM   #296
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I'm a cynic. I don't think they care, I think that anyone proselytizing, or trying to "save" the "lost" from eternal damnation are doing it out of self-interest. It's like they're working on commission with God, and the more they try to spread the good word, they better standing they'll get and it ensures them a spot in heaven.
For Christian's who believe that God knows their hearts and the real reason behind why they do good works this kind of self interest conversion that you talk about would do them much more harm than good.
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Old 03-24-2011, 04:53 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by 80sU2isBest View Post
Honest truth is that JWs come to my house to talk to me frequently. Honestly, I don't get mad and offended that they think I'm lost. I actually appreciate that they care enough to try to convert me. Sometimes I have nice discussions with them, sometimes I just politely excuse myself. But I never get mad and offended that they are trying to reach out to me. I just don't.
If you really think that way, 80s, that is admirable.

But shouldn't people looking for save others be more concerned about their lives, whether they are saved and where they go when they die is secured? I've always felt that people shouldn't focus on other people's sins or lack of faith because it rings "he who is without sin cast the first stone". You may think you're on your way to Heaven, but as Jesus said, "the first will be last, and the last will be first".
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Old 03-24-2011, 04:56 PM   #298
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I'm a cynic. I don't think they care, I think that anyone proselytizing, or trying to "save" the "lost" from eternal damnation are doing it out of self-interest. It's like they're working on commission with God, and the more they try to spread the good word, they better standing they'll get and it ensures them a spot in heaven.
Regarding some, that is true, I'm sure.

However, it is most definitely not true for others, like myself. I can tell you 100%, not even a shred of self-doubt, that if I tell you about Christ it's because I care and so that you can go to Heaven.

I am a very faith-oriented person. I embrace the Gospel of Grace, not the Curse of The Law. If you knew me personally for any period of time, you'd say that I am not legalistic at all. According to the Bible, my faith saves me, not my actions. If I just wanted to ensure myself a place in Heaven, all I need to do is have faith. i don't have to share the Gospel with anyone if I'm concerned about myself.
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Old 03-24-2011, 05:02 PM   #299
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I believe that it is not the virtuous life that will save the person, but the putting faith in Christ that will save the person.
So, yes, you believe that people who do not believe in Christ are going to hell, no matter how virtuous they are?
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Old 03-24-2011, 05:06 PM   #300
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If you really think that way, 80s, that is admirable.

But shouldn't people looking for save others be more concerned about their lives, whether they are saved and where they go when they die is secured?
The first person I focused on as far as salvation was myself. I decided to do something about it and put my faith in Christ. Now that's done. According to the Bible, those who put their faith in Christ will spend eternity in Heaven. My faith is in Christ, so according to the Bible I am going to Heaven.

Now my focus is on spreading the Gospel so that others can go to Heaven.

If I got saved and then didn't tell a soul how they could get saved, that wouldn't be love at all.

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I've always felt that people shouldn't focus on other people's sins or lack of faith because it rings "he who is without sin cast the first stone". You may think you're on your way to Heaven, but as Jesus said, "the first will be last, and the last will be first".
I don't know if you were referring to me, of it were just a general statement. But I don't cast stones. T don't bring up anyone's personal sins. I have no right to. The Bible even tells me that it is not my right to judge the world. I bring up sin on a global level - ie: we have all sinned. And I do that not to judge people for committing sins; I commit sins as well. I bring that up to try to show people that we all need a Savior.
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