Do you believe in hell? - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 03-13-2011, 07:36 PM   #16
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 03:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BEAL View Post
But God is forcing you to make a choice based on fear, and that's not really free will, it's playing the odds.
This.
__________________

__________________
maycocksean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2011, 08:03 PM   #17
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,653
Local Time: 04:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post

Doesn't God overseeing the torture of Hitler, Pol Pot etc, reduce Him to pretty much their level?
It does, but that's me expressing how horrified I am about how evil some people can be; you just want to see some justice even if eternity in hell seems like too much justice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post
I don't see how anyone would choose an eternity of torment. I think those that choose not to be with God would rather not exist at all then live torment. The concept of choosing oblivion (as a ceasing of existence) at least has some corrolation to the human experience.
I don't think people choose eternity of torment. I think some people aren't aware of what they are doing. I mean, some actions and behaviors can be a good ego boost but are not good for the soul.

The way I see it, humans have to achieve their superego, to use Freudian terms. Most humans are ego-centric but should obtain a higher self. Kind of like a nirvana in a sense. When they achieve that higher self, they achieve heaven, on earth and in the afterlife.

As I said before, I am open to reincarnation and I think its possible that those who do not obtain a higher self are born again and again until they do. But then again, I've had no experiences to say that reincarnation exists. To quote Dolly Parton, "I don't believe in this life and I didn't believe in my past life either".
__________________

__________________
Pearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2011, 08:31 PM   #18
Refugee
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,381
Local Time: 03:48 AM
My 2 cents - the whole "Good people go to heaven, bad people go to hell" thing is way too simplistic. If you're born into money and privelege, with a stable family environment and opportunities to do virtually anything you want in life (say like Bono's children) the overwhelming odds are you'll be a good caring person. And you'll go to heaven according to common wisdom. People become dysfunctional or "bad" by their circumstances, like being born into squalor and raised by an alcoholic single parent. If they then mug an old lady because they don't know any better, and that old lady dies, do they automatically deserve hell?
If we're talking about psycopaths and sociopaths, did these people choose to be evil or were they born with the brain chemistry to be like that? I have no idea what lies ahead, but I like to believe if there is a heaven and hell there are other ways of deciding where you end up instead of purely how you led your life.
__________________
lemonfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2011, 10:25 PM   #19
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 03:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
It does, but that's me expressing how horrified I am about how evil some people can be; you just want to see some justice even if eternity in hell seems like too much justice.
I get that. I just happen to believe God is bigger than we are. . .that while we might be tempted to stooping to the level of the worst of the worst, He isn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemonfly View Post
My 2 cents - the whole "Good people go to heaven, bad people go to hell" thing is way too simplistic. If you're born into money and privelege, with a stable family environment and opportunities to do virtually anything you want in life (say like Bono's children) the overwhelming odds are you'll be a good caring person. And you'll go to heaven according to common wisdom. People become dysfunctional or "bad" by their circumstances, like being born into squalor and raised by an alcoholic single parent. If they then mug an old lady because they don't know any better, and that old lady dies, do they automatically deserve hell?
If we're talking about psycopaths and sociopaths, did these people choose to be evil or were they born with the brain chemistry to be like that? I have no idea what lies ahead, but I like to believe if there is a heaven and hell there are other ways of deciding where you end up instead of purely how you led your life.
Again, I just happen to give more credit to God that He would be just and fair and take all the circumstances you've mentioned into account.
__________________
maycocksean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2011, 11:53 PM   #20
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator
 
Diemen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,234
Local Time: 02:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
It does, but that's me expressing how horrified I am about how evil some people can be; you just want to see some justice even if eternity in hell seems like too much justice.
To me that sounds like revenge, not justice. Justice (to me) is holding people accountable for their transgressions, not inflicting the same (or worse) damage upon them that they inflicted on others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post
I just happen to believe God is bigger than we are. . .that while we might be tempted to stooping to the level of the worst of the worst, He isn't.
Agreed.
__________________
Diemen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2011, 12:56 AM   #21
Refugee
 
jonnytakeawalk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: living underground, eating from a can
Posts: 1,233
Local Time: 08:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post
I'm right with you in your argument on
I think it's foolish to speculate on the ratio of saved to lost. Scriptures say that God does not anyone to be lost, and quotes by Jesus regarding the "broad" and "narrow" do not have to suggest that most everyone will be lost. (Sorry about the saved/lost jargon. I'm pretyt under the weather right now and too lazy not to use the Christianese).
What do you think Jesus means by the wide and narrow gates?

Just as a somewhat interesting aside, a church I went to during Christmas time had changed the lyrics to, 'Hark the Herald Angels sing.' The lyrics, 'and man will live forever more because of Christmas day' were now 'and man might live forever more because of Christmas day'

Gee really sucks the joy out of that song now doesn't it?!

Why not be more specific? 'and man might live forever more (if he is in the priviliged minority growing up in a western world who has actually heard the word while everyone else will suffer in eternal hell forever and ever and ever) because of Christmas Day!'

Ah Christmas joy!
__________________
jonnytakeawalk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2011, 12:59 AM   #22
45:33
 
cobl04's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: East Point to Shaolin
Posts: 55,030
Local Time: 07:48 PM
Yes. It's called "Monday morning"
__________________
cobl04 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2011, 03:18 AM   #23
Refugee
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tel-Aviv, Israel
Posts: 1,300
Local Time: 08:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobl04 View Post
Yes. It's called "Monday morning"
*ding*....we have a winner!
__________________
AchtungBono is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2011, 03:52 AM   #24
45:33
 
cobl04's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: East Point to Shaolin
Posts: 55,030
Local Time: 07:48 PM
Winning
__________________
cobl04 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2011, 07:38 AM   #25
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 03:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnytakeawalk View Post
What do you think Jesus means by the wide and narrow gates?
I think it has more do with the idea that it's easier to do the wrong thing, then the right the thing. It may very well imply a numbers situation, but I don't think it's useful for us to start making judgements about how many will be lost or saved based on that scripture. We're instructed not to judge and allowing ourselves to speculate on how many will go to heaven and how many won't strikes me as a type of judgement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnytakeawalk View Post
Just as a somewhat interesting aside, a church I went to during Christmas time had changed the lyrics to, 'Hark the Herald Angels sing.' The lyrics, 'and man will live forever more because of Christmas day' were now 'and man might live forever more because of Christmas day'

Gee really sucks the joy out of that song now doesn't it?!

Why not be more specific? 'and man might live forever more (if he is in the priviliged minority growing up in a western world who has actually heard the word while everyone else will suffer in eternal hell forever and ever and ever) because of Christmas Day!'

Ah Christmas joy!
No kidding! I don't see why it's not obvious to most Christians what a horrible God this is.
__________________
maycocksean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2011, 08:28 AM   #26
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: London/Sydney
Posts: 6,608
Local Time: 09:48 AM
I have no great knowledge on all of this, but...

I understand that 'the rules' in regards to who goes where and why and when differ quite a bit between different strands of Christian faith. However - what would be a good guess on the % of people who have ever walked this earth, who have had absolutely no exposure to Christianity? Or have had only extremely limited exposure (awareness of its existence, but no real knowledge), or who have for one reason or another not lived a life where an understanding or choice has been available (childhood death, mental disability etc)?

I'd say that would cover... 90%+? At a complete guess? But it doesn't matter, as long as its above 50% (as it surely would be, easily) then there are, give or take a few details, a couple of Christian beliefs, that either way, make no sense:

(A) You are only 'saved'/heaven worthy, if you have made a conscious choice. Given a choice, accepted these beliefs. Anyone who casually disregards or specifically chooses against? Sorry. But also - anyone who never had even an opportunity to choose? Sorry. So at least over half, more likely the vast, vast majority of people who have ever walked this earth, condemned without even knowing it. No knowledge of it. No choice. No say.

(B) I know some believe that there would be some kind of mercy on those who never had such a choice, that there would be some separate kind of opportunity for a choice to be presented as part of some second coming scenario, or that 'innocents' get a free pass. So under this scenario, the vast majority of people who have ever walked this earth either get a free pass or heart-in-the-right-place/actions based judgement, which seems to run counter to, well, everything, or do actually get a more fair choice based on what would at the time be a far more clear, 'fact based' presentation of options. Again, seems to run against everything, seeing as that would have absolutely nothing to do with faith.

So in reality, either 90%+ of all of humanity are just flat out condemned to eternal hell or death - or - 90%+ of all of humanity either get into eternal heaven or life on a free pass, or get a choice under some significantly different and more easily acceptable conditions that run completely counter to everything that appears to be 'the point'. Only 10% are held accountable, given a choice, according to the real point or meaning or plan of it all.

Does any of that make sense?
__________________
Earnie Shavers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2011, 08:47 AM   #27
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Kieran McConville's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Auto Dafoe
Posts: 9,600
Local Time: 06:48 PM
I think most religions are a just a belated recognition of a preexisting state: human beings as a moral animal (ok, yes, the great apes, the elephants, the dolphins, but let's not get totally sidetracked).

It's like the British Empire granting the dominions their nationhood after some mysterious longstanding period in which they became that very thing, de facto.

So, to the extent that I think about it at all, I doubt very much that the overwhelming ranks of humans who lived prior to agriculture and settled towns and ritualised religion are damned by any divinity worth the name. I doubt there is in fact any such thing as Hell. It is a manmade concept. I am sure there are consequences, but that is not the same thing as the commonly-understood Hell.
__________________
Kieran McConville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2011, 10:20 AM   #28
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Canadiens1131's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,363
Local Time: 04:48 AM
I just kind of look at heaven the way I look at religion in general.

No one wants to be alone, whether in life or in death. The idea that we just cease to exist after 75 years on this planet troubles a lot of people, although not me personally.

I think religion (or Christianity, at least) is the manifestation of the needs of the human ego. The idea of repenting for one's sins as a get out of jail free card, the need to have a "purpose", the need to not be alone.

So it's either Jesus or shopping at American Apparrel, or the Red Sox, basically.
__________________
Canadiens1131 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2011, 10:31 AM   #29
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 03:48 AM
Hell
__________________
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2011, 10:33 AM   #30
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Canadiens1131's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,363
Local Time: 04:48 AM
Hell is other people.
__________________

__________________
Canadiens1131 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com