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Old 03-22-2011, 06:00 PM   #226
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So you hate gay people because somebody didn't like them 1500 years ago and wrote it down. Got it.

How did you get me hating gay people from saying that we're going to make mistakes? That in of itself had nothing to do with ones sexual preference. I was implying that most of what Leviticus was made up of was all of the mistakes we're bound to make, that also is depending on which of those you choose to see as a 'mistake' (meaning: not for everyone). I have absolutely nothing against someone being gay, I don't judge and if you like that kind of thing, good for you.
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Old 03-22-2011, 06:15 PM   #227
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You are judging, though. You're telling them they're making mistakes because they're gay, simply because someone wrote it down 1500 years ago in a book.

Mistakes are choices. Irvine being gay is not a choice.
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Old 03-22-2011, 06:24 PM   #228
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To follow up what I should have added, Leviticus is more like guidelines. You should just say the whole bible is just made up of guidelines, choosing to follow them if and when you feel like it. "Just pick out the ones that matter to you."

That might make people feel better.
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Old 03-22-2011, 06:27 PM   #229
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How did you get me hating gay people from saying that we're going to make mistakes? That in of itself had nothing to do with ones sexual preference. I was implying that most of what Leviticus was made up of was all of the mistakes we're bound to make, that also is depending on which of those you choose to see as a 'mistake' (meaning: not for everyone). I have absolutely nothing against someone being gay, I don't judge and if you like that kind of thing, good for you.
So you really believe that eating shellfish, touching pigskin or sleeping in the same bed as your wife during menstruation are all "mistakes"?

How do you explain a loving God that makes you kick your wife out of bed once a month?

You really don't seem to understand Leviticus.
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Old 03-22-2011, 07:11 PM   #230
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That in and of itself had nothing to do with one's sexual preference.
It's not a preference.
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Old 03-22-2011, 07:21 PM   #231
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The carcass of the pig, not, like, a pigskin football. The same word is also used of human corpses. Hide is distinct from flesh in Hebrew. No observant Jew would ask such a question seriously, nor why a loving God hates pigs or menstrual fluid. But whatever.
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Old 03-22-2011, 07:35 PM   #232
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IMO Leviticus is not to be interpreted as "guidelines". Like most of the OT, the overall purpose is to demonstrate the "covenant" nature of the relationship between God and His people. Obey and you are blessed; disobey and lots of bad shit happens, rinse, repeat. I'm not saying I agree with this or believe in this, but this is the overall purpose surrounding how/why it was written. Whether or not half the stuff ever actually happened doesn't matter, the narratives all point towards this recurring theme. Studying Levitic law out of context and asking "are we REALLY supposed to be doing this?" misses the point, which is to say that the birth of Jesus fulfilled this covenant between God and His people, so all these Levitic laws are a moot point, and if one really wants "guidelines" for how to live life, treat people with compassion, respect, and decency, then look to the example set by Jesus and not these archaic verses taken out of context.
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Old 03-22-2011, 07:55 PM   #233
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^ That's not how rabbinic Judaism understands the law, but, yes, it's an accurate summary of the priestly religion of the ancient Hebrews.


(ETA--And this is getting pretty far off-course...)
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Old 03-22-2011, 09:41 PM   #234
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Sorry I realized later on I should have said, as far as I have been taught in the Protestant tradition.
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Old 03-23-2011, 01:53 AM   #235
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I took away an appreciation of the Bible as a work of literature. I experienced no stigma.
This is how I feel, too. The Bible is indeed a fascinating book. I have no problem believing some of the people and events in it did exist/take place. And I think there are some very important, interesting, beautiful messages/lessons one can take from the book.

I just tend to think it's like any other book in that regard and don't get why it holds so much more weight over anything else, is all.

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I didn't argue or didn't press a point. I didn't try to prove I was right and they were wrong. I respect their faith. I just don't participate in it.

We occasionally discuss religion and leave it at "I came from apes (translation: an ancestor common to apes and man which does not have the same zing as a slogan) and Mom did not". It works.

I can't tell you I don't vacillate back toward flirting with faith now and again when I am feeling vulnerable or helpless and everything seems out of my control because for some reason or other, it gives me a temporary feeling of control. I haven't lost all my superstitions. What you learn as a child does stay with you. But I am a results person. Do I see a tangible return in the here and now beyond that momentary comfort? Do I see a god that is fair and just or just a bunch of people saying he is? While I will experiment with anything, ultimately I only believe what I see when it comes to faith.

I walked away from the faith. I never walked away from the people who had faith.
. Well said.

My parents have never been all that religious-they have a few beliefs here and there, but they're also very skeptical and always questioning and pretty much just leave it up to, "Who knows?" I never had to debate with them about religion, we were generally on the same page. I know my grandma was definitely religious, though, it was because of her I went to church regularly when I was a child. After she died, that stopped.

I've just never felt all that comfortable in a church. Not so much because of the people, the people I've met in the churches I've been in have been very nice. I just get bored easy there and I've always felt...weird holding hands with a bunch of people or standing up with them and reciting the same things from a book as them at the same time. Somehow it sounds odd coming out of my mouth, if that makes any sort of sense. Add in the numerous questions I have and I just feel I can do my own searching in a way that I feel comfortable with on my own time.

But there are indeed many people who are wonderful examples of their faiths, no matter what they might be. And I love having discussions with them about it. And I certainly won't stop them from believing whatever they want. All I ask is for mutual respect.

Angela
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Old 03-23-2011, 07:16 AM   #236
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Just to get back to this what are your thoughts on those who do not actively reject goodness and kindness all their lives? (as I believe most of us don't) To use Obama's mother as an example he described her as the kindest most generous person that he had ever known and yet she wasn't a Christian. Would she have willingly chosen to go to a place of no kindness and love for an eternity?
This will seem like it has nothing to do with what you're asking, but bear with me, please...

2 Peter 3: 1-9 tells us that God has been holding back the End Times because of his love for us:

"But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. " (2 Peter 3:8-9)

If God wants everyone to come to repentance, he will make sure that everyone has the opportunity to come to repentance.

I believe that those who earnestly seek God will discover that the Gospel is indeed true.

Matthew 7:7-8
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. "

I also believe that those who have lived their being kind and good (for no ulterior motives) will discover at some point before they die that Christ is the author of righteousness. They will have the free will to accept or deny Christ, but I can't imagine that that kind of person would deny Him, knowing that He is truth. For this idea, I have no specific Biblical proof; it is a strongly held conviction based on my knowledge of the nature of God.
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Old 03-23-2011, 07:34 AM   #237
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I also believe that those who have lived their being kind and good (for no ulterior motives) will discover at some point before they die that Christ is the author of righteousness. They will have the free will to accept or deny Christ, but I can't imagine that that kind of person would deny Him, knowing that He is truth. For this idea, I have no specific Biblical proof; it is a strongly held conviction based on my knowledge of the nature of God.
How do you think this would occur for those who have (or had) absolutely no idea even of the existence of Christ/Christianity?
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Old 03-23-2011, 08:48 AM   #238
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Does it really matter? The answer you'll get is just opinion, which is what we all have. I don't think anything that's described in here with regards to afterlife exists. Can I prove it doesn't exist, well no, but then I really don't think that's a valid argument.

Everyone can have their opinions, but I'm not going to base how I live my life on a few people stating "Jesus is the answer" or "Buddha" or whatever.

If it makes you feel better about yourself, makes you a better person, and helps you deal with hardship, that's perfectly fine and admirable.

I'm sure there will/can be many answers to your question Earnie, which is exactly why it's so hard to believe.
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Old 03-23-2011, 08:59 AM   #239
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NY Times
interesting article which I largely agree with, I lean towards incompatibilism (determinism precludes free will) but sometimes I wonder if the notion of free will which say Christians use is just logically impossible. Even if our actions didn't follow normal causality how does that make them free? Would they be completely uninfluenced by outside factors and somewhat arbitrary or would they follow complex relationships of knowledge and beliefs in a causal chain?

I think the weakness in moral actions which are measures in those surveys may be consequences of how people believe determinism takes something away when in fact it says that all of our greatest moral actions must have been determined by fortuitous circumstances which I humanity is causally set to adopt.

Lock rapists and murderers up from a justifiable concern for public safety and minimising harm. Do right because you believe that minimising suffering is a good thing. Determinism is not nihilism.
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Old 03-23-2011, 09:04 AM   #240
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You are judging, though. You're telling them they're making mistakes because they're gay, simply because someone wrote it down 1500 years ago in a book.

Mistakes are choices. Irvine being gay is not a choice.
It wouldn't matter if it was a choice. There is as much intrinsic harm in homosexuality as in heterosexuality.
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