Do you believe in hell? - Page 12 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 03-19-2011, 01:15 PM   #166
Blue Crack Addict
 
PhilsFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Standing on the shore, facing east.
Posts: 18,877
Local Time: 12:22 PM
I found it funny when God created homosexuals and then told them all they should be killed for being homosexual.
__________________

__________________
PhilsFan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2011, 01:22 PM   #167
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,615
Local Time: 06:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilsFan View Post
I found it funny when God created homosexuals and then told them all they should be killed for being homosexual.
This, and also issues such as desire, as I mentioned before, I never quite figured out. On the one hand, God created us in his own image, and gave us all the inherent characteristics that we possess now. Then he said, "But dare you using them!"? That's cruel to me. First he makes us imperfect, then he punishes us for being imperfect. (Disclaimer: Of course, imperfect in the sense of what God is supposed to value as perfect, not what I view as perfect.)
__________________

__________________
Vincent Vega is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2011, 01:44 PM   #168
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Casamares's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Poland
Posts: 3,699
Local Time: 07:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Vega View Post
This, and also issues such as desire, as I mentioned before, I never quite figured out. On the one hand, God created us in his own image, and gave us all the inherent characteristics that we possess now. Then he said, "But dare you using them!"? That's cruel to me. First he makes us imperfect, then he punishes us for being imperfect. (Disclaimer: Of course, imperfect in the sense of what God is supposed to value as perfect, not what I view as perfect.)
I think God created people with the possibility to be perfect. Free will couldn't have been included in being perfect automatically.

My understanding of the punishment in OT: God "signed a deal" with people and they promised they'd obey the law. It's somewhere in the Bible (I'm not good at quoting) that without the law there are no punishment. Punishment appears when somebody declares to do/not to do particular things and then breaks a deal.

In NT we could mention Peter, who was totally imperfect - he doubted many times, fell asleep in the night when Jesus was arrested and then rejected Him three times. Despite all of those things he was chosen to be the leader of the group.
__________________
Casamares is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2011, 02:48 PM   #169
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 12:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flybabe View Post
God wants us all to live right, get saved and strive to live like His people (however that may be). I want to, I really do but I don't know how to get myself to the point where it matters to me. I don't know how to explain it. I go to church, though I feel like I have no connection with God what so ever, like He doesn't care to listen to what I have to say. Somehow, I know that isn't true.
Don't be disheartened. If salvation were based on how "good" we are, no one would make it to Heaven.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."
Ephesians 2:8-9
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2011, 03:14 PM   #170
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Strong Badia
Posts: 3,429
Local Time: 05:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Vega View Post
On the one hand, God created us in his own image, and gave us all the inherent characteristics that we possess now. Then he said, "But dare you using them!"? That's cruel to me. First he makes us imperfect, then he punishes us for being imperfect.
The Scriptures make it pretty clear that we were made perfect, but we chose imperfection. The way we so often choose what we want, not what we need.

As far as the commandments, the Ten Commandments, the Torah, and even the commands of Jesus are all pretty rooted in what happens when human beings begin to use and exploit one another, rather than bless and help one another. The Bible's take on homosexuality by liberal scholars can be used to support this position. Sexuality is a gift, but not one to be used lightly. Pleasure is a good thing in the eyes of God, but not when it comes at the expense of others.
__________________
nathan1977 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2011, 03:18 PM   #171
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Strong Badia
Posts: 3,429
Local Time: 05:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilsFan View Post
These higher beings sound like dicks.
"It's no secret that a conscience can sometimes be a pest."

Quote:
We're only as good as the world allows us to be.
I have often said that I'm grateful God loves me as I am, but He doesn't leave me that way.
__________________
nathan1977 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2011, 04:28 PM   #172
War Child
 
Inner El Guapo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 609
Local Time: 11:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilsFan View Post
I just think it's a shame that I basically have to mend my stated viewpoints based upon the crowd around me. Alas, this society and its attachment to religion have created a huge social stigma against agnosticism and atheism, one that even a family in the northeastern United States in 2011 cannot attempt to avoid.
More important than any social stigma is the stigma it might bring within your family. If that requires that you keep up the charade - I say go for it.

I've brought up my extreme skepticism for 'all things religion' around my mother before - she's a devout Evangelical - but what is the use other than to antagonize her? My dad used to do that shit too - that's part of why they got divorced but anyhow...should my mother and I ever talk about 'something Joel Osteen said', I nod my head and politely play along.

Truth is, Joel Osteen (for one example) has a pretty positive message, so it's not that bad. It's only when she brings up other kooks I have to practically bite through my tongue - and I don't always do it.
__________________
Inner El Guapo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2011, 04:31 PM   #173
War Child
 
Inner El Guapo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 609
Local Time: 11:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnytakeawalk View Post
Just as a bit of an aside it's interesting when people talk about religion bringing comfort because I really do think atheism can bring a lot of comfort on its own. To believe that there is no God, no judgement after death, no Hell and that they are accountable to no one would be rather comforting for quite a lot of people.

Those Atheism buses had the slogan, 'There probably isn't a God so stop worrying and enjoy your life.'
Absolutely. I think some people are comforted in just making the decision. Which was part of what I was saying - explaining my comfort with my own agnosticism.

I have determined, for myself, that the decision is entirely irrelevant to how you choose to behave and carry yourself towards others.
__________________
Inner El Guapo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2011, 07:14 PM   #174
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,615
Local Time: 06:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
The Scriptures make it pretty clear that we were made perfect, but we chose imperfection. The way we so often choose what we want, not what we need.

As far as the commandments, the Ten Commandments, the Torah, and even the commands of Jesus are all pretty rooted in what happens when human beings begin to use and exploit one another, rather than bless and help one another. The Bible's take on homosexuality by liberal scholars can be used to support this position. Sexuality is a gift, but not one to be used lightly. Pleasure is a good thing in the eyes of God, but not when it comes at the expense of others.
And economists say people are rational...

So then the only issue God should have should be with rape and child abuse.
__________________
Vincent Vega is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2011, 07:15 PM   #175
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 06:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by A_Wanderer View Post
That I don't know how challenging it is to break away from family traditions makes your free-thought all the more commendable.
For me, as a confirmed non-believer from an RC background, I never attend Mass, and though I generally avoid rows about religion, if someone else starts a debate about religion, I will take them up on it and do my best to advocate for the atheist perspective, in the politest way possible.

What's bizarre to me is that, with Irish people of my generation, they never go to mass, they don't receive the sacraments, they have approximately the same belief in god as you or I - i.e, sfa, they are openly angry regarding the misdeeds of the Catholic Church and the child rapists it protected - and yet, then when they go and get hitched up and get married, the official blessing of the RCC is usually required. Very rarely is the civil ceremony opted for.

Irish people are very much in the al-a-carte Catholic mode - one of the few positives that come out of the child abuse scandals is that people are openly offensive about religion along the lines of "so, did you find a paedophile to officiate at the wedding then? Best keep him away from the kids if so!", that kind of black humour.

I find these positions hard to reconcile. The prevading influence of religion is a bit of a mindfuck, quite frankly. Or a meme, perhaps, a social meme.

As for the original question, in the immortal words of Trick, hell is around the corner where I shelter:

__________________
financeguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2011, 10:00 AM   #176
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 03:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inner El Guapo View Post
More important than any social stigma is the stigma it might bring within your family. If that requires that you keep up the charade - I say go for it.

I've brought up my extreme skepticism for 'all things religion' around my mother before - she's a devout Evangelical - but what is the use other than to antagonize her? My dad used to do that shit too - that's part of why they got divorced but anyhow...should my mother and I ever talk about 'something Joel Osteen said', I nod my head and politely play along.

Truth is, Joel Osteen (for one example) has a pretty positive message, so it's not that bad. It's only when she brings up other kooks I have to practically bite through my tongue - and I don't always do it.
There might be good practical reasons for keeping disbelief silent but at the same time if few are open about their lack of belief then societal attitudes will not change. There is a role for atheist activism in championing secular issues which protect everybody's rights and pointing out falsehoods about nonbelievers.

PhilsFan is a smart and presumably morally competent person. Being honest about what he thinks will not change that.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2011, 10:02 AM   #177
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 03:22 AM
Daniel Dennett has influenced my thinking on the origins and persistence of religions.

YouTube - Dan Dennett: Ants, terrorism, and the awesome power of memes

It's good to see some honesty about what people believe. For instance that nonbelievers will go to hell if they don't accept Jesus into their hearts. It don't take it personally because I know that I can act conscientiously without the carrot and stick of heaven and hell.

It's also worth noting that the type of free will that posters in this thread seem to assume we possess has a few problems. The notion of cause and effect in our world tilts me towards determinism and even introducing some truly random non-deterministic event that alters my actions still leaves my thought processes beyond my control. My feeling is that we all have an illusion of choice and are psychologically primed with concepts about moral responsibility that don't easily reconcile with determinism.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2011, 10:40 AM   #178
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 12:22 PM
Deleted this post for possible refining.
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2011, 11:03 AM   #179
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,615
Local Time: 06:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by A_Wanderer View Post
It's also worth noting that the type of free will that posters in this thread seem to assume we possess has a few problems. The notion of cause and effect in our world tilts me towards determinism and even introducing some truly random non-deterministic event that alters my actions still leaves my thought processes beyond my control. My feeling is that we all have an illusion of choice and are psychologically primed with concepts about moral responsibility that don't easily reconcile with determinism.
Reminds me a bit of the economic concept of "path dependency". This theory assumes that "history matters", in other words, the economic history of a country strongly influences choices made in times of crises or when facing decisions on economic policy in general. We think we are perfectly free to decide, change and adapt, but in fact we always fall back into the path our ancestors have taken. Don't know if that's really similar to what you are saying, though.
__________________
Vincent Vega is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2011, 04:09 PM   #180
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Strong Badia
Posts: 3,429
Local Time: 05:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Vega View Post
So then the only issue God should have should be with rape and child abuse.
Are those the only ways people abuse their sexuality?
__________________

__________________
nathan1977 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com