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Old 07-27-2010, 06:32 PM   #61
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what about the time teachers whapped kids hands with canes?
Not sure about up North but corporal punishment in the Republic was still legal in my first few years at primary school, though it was probably dying out and the teachers themselves were turning against it. I do remember the year before the ban on corporal punishment came in, when I was in first class (I think, the equivalent of the US first grade) there was a lady teacher who was not shy of using the ruler on the kids' hands. Being a very quiet sort of kid and usually top of the class I never got the ruler myself except one time when the class had been so unruly she decided that everyone would have to get one stroke of the ruler on the hand. I can't say I was 'psychologically damaged' by the experience and I doubt if any the other kids were either, but, really, a grown adult hitting six or seven year old kids just seems wrong.

I also remember a few years later, when I was in fifth and sixth class, at which point the ban was definitely in force, there were these two obnoxious kids who kept disrupting the class, the male teacher had no control over them whatever and eventually resorted to whacking them on the head with his hand ever time they started their nonsense, the only effect this had was that they might shut up for a few minutes at most. Now, again, the idea of a grown man hitting kids is just wrong, but, frankly, these kids were really, really obnoxious. And, actually, this recollection is if anything an argument against corporal punishment, as it simply didn't work because they kept on with their messing and disrupting the class, until their departure to secondary school to create more havoc, doubtless (fortunately, not the same one as me).
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Old 07-27-2010, 06:55 PM   #62
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My son and step daughter were never allowed to hit each other, any of their playmates or animals. This in not acceptable behavior.
Exactly, so it follows that parents perhaps should not model unacceptable behaviour. Whether it's a hit, swat, smack, spanking, slap, beating, abuse or anything else across the physical spectrum.

"Do as I say, not as I do" is about as productive as "this is going to hurt me more than it hurts you".
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Old 07-27-2010, 07:15 PM   #63
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If children are not taught the consequences of unapproved behavior is violence

they will not know how to act like an adult when they are older.
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Old 07-27-2010, 08:41 PM   #64
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My step daughter and son in law are wonderful parents. They have never hit or spanked my grand daughter. She is bright, funny and very well behaved. Instead of yelling when they wanted her attention, they would whisper to her and let her know she could not do something. They would also explain why. You would be surprised as to how smart toddlers are. They can understand, if you act in a loving, teaching and respectful way.

If someone screamed at me. I know. I wouldn't listen. If you talk to me calmly. I am very open to what you have to say.
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Old 07-27-2010, 08:57 PM   #65
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Parenting is hard work, and I respect everyones opinions.

I may not be a perfect parent, and I do make mistakes along the way. My children are wonderful, despite my flaws! It is the hardest and most important job I will ever have, but it is the most rewarding by far.
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Old 07-27-2010, 09:00 PM   #66
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Exactly, so it follows that parents perhaps should not model unacceptable behaviour. Whether it's a hit, swat, smack, spanking, slap, beating, abuse or anything else across the physical spectrum.

"Do as I say, not as I do" is about as productive as "this is going to hurt me more than it hurts you".
I completely agree......the reason this little girl hits is because she is screamed at. "I'm going to bust your ass. Or I'm tired of this shit."

I know. Horrible language in front of any child. Instead of talking to her and teaching her. That hitting is not acceptable. We respect others and etc. The grandmother who babysits is just too lazy to do this. She simply screams at the children.

I've tried to talk to her. But, I get the "mind your own business look." I've never seen the grandmother actually hit or abuse her. Believe me, if I do. I would be on the phone to the police. Just words, but it still is teaching her that anger, violence, is the way to solve a problem.
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Old 07-27-2010, 09:15 PM   #67
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I may not be a perfect parent, and I do make mistakes along the way. My children are wonderful, despite my flaws! It is the hardest and most important job I will ever have, but it is the most rewarding by far.


Frankly it's a miracle that my own foul mouth has yet to give me a karmic spank. Ironically my 6 year old's latest question is "what is the f word" without realizing she's heard it her entire life. (never directed at her of course)
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Old 07-27-2010, 09:24 PM   #68
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I have a story about the f word....on 9/11 I was watching the continuous coverage, as we all were. My daughter was 17 months at the time. When the first tower started to fall, I was dropping f bombs like crazy. Guess what my darling baby daughter started to say......repeatedly. My husband gave me a pass, but I felt horrible. It happens! She never did repeat it, not even to this day! My 7 year old on the other hand..... He always says " well Dad says it when he is watching hockey!"
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Old 07-27-2010, 09:29 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by ryancoke71 View Post
Parenting is hard work, and I respect everyones opinions.

I may not be a perfect parent, and I do make mistakes along the way. My children are wonderful, despite my flaws! It is the hardest and most important job I will ever have, but it is the most rewarding by far.
Exactly. Lord knows how they grow up well despite our flaws sometimes, but they do.

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Frankly it's a miracle that my own foul mouth has yet to give me a karmic spank. Ironically my 6 year old's latest question is "what is the f word" without realizing she's heard it her entire life. (never directed at her of course)
Ha! You have time, yet. I took great pains to tone the language down around mine, but when she was three, she heard the f word from a neighbour kid. She ran around the yard for half a day using it out of context while I did my best to turn away while I laughed. I finally explained to her that it isn't a nice word, and not one we use in our house (liar, liar, pants on fire). She stopped saying it, and never did again till she got much older. Now, she's all grown up and has inherited my potty mouth, and sometimes our house sounds like a bunch of sailors on shore leave rather than two respectable females, lol.
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Old 07-27-2010, 10:07 PM   #70
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.

One further note. I find that in the African-American community that I work in (the school I teach in is predominantly black), a much "harsher" level of spanking is considered acceptable than in other culture groups I've worked in. The terms "whipped" and "beat" seem to have more currency. It's very much about putting the fear in kids and I find that long term it really does nothing to improve the kids' behavior (except when Mom or Dad are watching). That's just my observation and I'm hesitant to say how accurate that is.
At first I was surprised at how many people here were not whooped as a child, but this post made me realize that it might be due to cultural/socio-economic differences.

Mom is black-american (sorry Sean, the term African-American bothers me ), Dad is mexican-american, both grew up in Michael Jackson's hometown. So, hitting as discipline was the only discipline they knew. We got beat as kids, in public and in private. Mostly with belts at home, but hands in public. We also got slapped, thrown into walls, pushed down stairs, etc. etc.

Yes, it was a bit over the top, especially considering I was overall, a good kid But then again, my parents really just didn't know any other way, so I can't really hate them for it. I think I turned out pretty alright.

I noticed how some of my friends outright disrespected their own parents, and when I asked, they said they were never spanked. I'm not saying this happens to everyone who isn't spanked, but it is just a pattern I noticed amongst my peers. I especially noticed this when we moved to a middle-class neighborhood when I was young. Some of those kids were real brats.

I don't want kids, so I can't say anything about what I would do myself in terms of discipline. But, sometimes I wish parents would spank their brat ass kids who act a fool in public places.
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Old 07-27-2010, 10:49 PM   #71
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As a survivor of childhood abuse. I hated those who hurt me. It took many years for me to forgive them.

When I held my newborn son in my arms. I promised him. I would love always him, protect him and would never let any one to abuse him. I kept my promise.

My son who is an adult age, knows the extent of abuse. I suffered as a child. He thanks me in his own words. "You are an excellent mom."
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Old 07-28-2010, 06:21 PM   #72
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I noticed how some of my friends outright disrespected their own parents.
I see this a lot too, though like you, I see it more with kids outside of the black community. It's not like the kids are all awful they just treat their parents in a way--lots of eyerolling, backtack, sarcasm--that I would never have dreamed of with my own mom, and it wasn't like I was scared of her or anything. I was just raised with this idea that there was a certain way you treated your parents. It seems like a lot of kids these days don't have that idea.

Any thoughts on this?
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Old 07-28-2010, 06:54 PM   #73
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Any thoughts on this?


i think kids are raised differently today, mostly because the world has changed.

punishment exists in order to enforcing rule, and i think the rules, today, are much more in negotiation and contextualized than they were 100 years ago. 100 years ago, if you were (likely) born on a farm, you followed the safety rules or else your arm got chopped off by farm equipment. life was generally harsher, death was much more a part of everyday life (whether from disease or injury), and thus children had to be kept in line because the consequences for errant behavior were far more severe than they are today. your job as a parent was to keep your children alive, not to nurture their intellect or value their individuality. it wasn't necessary for children to think, speak, have opinions, and be valued for their own personalities, and parents probably weren't as interested in shaping and molding dynamic creatures who would become the repository of their (possibly shattered) hopes and dreams.

today, it's a different world. creativity, individuality, negotiation, emotional intelligence, reasoning -- these are far more valued skills than they were 100 years ago, and strict adherence to a predetermined set of rules are not. values change, and so does parenting adapt. we generally want people to seek their own answers, to find their own path, to think their own thoughts, to speak up, and to speak out, and to speak for themselves. while a lot of that takes the form of sass/sarcasm/disrespect in modern teenagers, i think it's important to note that every pushback against a parent is an attempt to form an independent identity. that sass might one day become the voice of a lawyer, or a journalist, or just some really awful housewife on a reality show. you never know.

human consciousness has changed in the past 100, 500, 1000 years. and it will continue to do so.
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Old 07-28-2010, 08:51 PM   #74
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Eh, maybe. But even in such an open world, I think there should still be a place for basic respect, courtesy.

We've all met people who are jerks and who excuse it by saying: "Hey, I'm just being me. Keeping it real."

Teenagers can push back against their parents while still being respectful. They can even fight with their parents. I know I did. But I'm not talking about teens, I'm talking about six year olds.
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Old 07-28-2010, 09:55 PM   #75
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I see this a lot too, though like you, I see it more with kids outside of the black community. It's not like the kids are all awful they just treat their parents in a way--lots of eyerolling, backtack, sarcasm--that I would never have dreamed of with my own mom, and it wasn't like I was scared of her or anything. I was just raised with this idea that there was a certain way you treated your parents. It seems like a lot of kids these days don't have that idea.

Any thoughts on this?
Of my friends who disrespected their parents (back talk, telling their mother "I hate you", picking fights, shouting, blatantly doing what they were told not to), it all cases it was basically because the parents had always allowed the kids to treat them like doormats, it became a habit. I'm with you, Sean. I never once yelled at my own mom, never slammed doors in her face, never thought to say "I hate you", and it's not because I was afraid of her or physically disciplined. I've always gotten along with my mom and love and respect my mom. We're not as close as some, but maybe that's the reason why....my friends who were disrespectful of their mothers also had these co-dependent relationships. Their moms were their best friends when they should have been moms.
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