Disciplining Your Child

[maycocksean]

Great post. You know, I'm getting slightly tired of this 'teenagers are brats these days' thesis, some of which I've seen creeping into some of the other posters' contributions on this thread. Last time I checked, the adults, the people who actually run the world, particularly the pre baby-boom generation, the baby boom generation, and even our own generation of thirtysomethings (scarily, we're now in charge, or soon will be) haven't done a spectacularly competent job of managing the world. I don't have kids, but if one day I do, I'd like to think that I'd raise them with a challenging, questioning mentality.

Really? Are we reading the same thread? Because I went back and read through the recent posts and I saw far more criticism of adults than kids. And who has suggested that kids shouldn't ask questions or challenge the status quo?

 

[financeguy]

Really? Are we reading the same thread? Because I went back and read through the recent posts and I saw far more criticism of adults than kids. And who has suggested that kids shouldn't ask questions or challenge the status quo?

I really have no interest in a row, my opinion is simply that a parent or teacher assaulting kids is not likely to be an effective form of discipline; at worst it may potentially damage them psychologically or physically, at best, based partially on direct experience as I posted before, it probably doesn't work - but, anyway, the thread I was reading was the one where you said:

I guess that's how I think spanking should be applied. So rarely for only the most serious of issues so that whatever happens to cause the punishment never happens again, and the message sticks with you for a lifetime.

Not singling you out, there were a few other posts in similar vein.

 

[maycocksean]

I really have no interest in a row, my opinion is simply that a parent or teacher assaulting kids is not likely to be an effective form of discipline; at worst it may potentially damage them psychologically or physically, at best, based partially on direct experience as I posted before, it probably doesn't work - but, anyway, the thread I was reading was the one where you said:



Not singling you out, there were a few other posts in similar vein.

I'm not spoiling for a fight either. I agree 100% with you that a parent or teacher assualting kids is neither effective nor right. That you're drawing the exact opposite conclusion about my views means that you're really not understanding what I'm saying at all. And that's fine. I can accept that; I ain't mad at ya

 

[Irvine511]

i do think kids are brattier these days, but many of the characteristics of the brat -- questioning authority, not taking "no" for an answer, a belief in the self, confidence -- while they make for irritating kids, these are qualities that are more likely to help you be successful in the modern world than being submissive, soft-spoken, insecure, rule adhering, and more concerned with the letter of the law rather than the spirit.

if we could divide these lines so cleanly.

of course there are downsides to being a brat -- it's awfully disconcerting when you get out into the "real world" and no one cares about your opinions or thoughts and they want you to just shut up and do your job, for now -- and there's a sense of entitlement that likely needs to be beaten (metaphorically) out of you, which it probably will, but in the long run, self-confidence and a belief in one's own self-worth and the willingness to find one's own answers, when tempered with maturity and good humor and respect for others, will probably get you further.

 

[A stor]

oh the irony

As the plot thickens.....

Thanks for making me laugh! You have a great sense of humor.

 

[A stor]

This is just my two cents.

I have raise a son and have a wonderful relationship with my daughter. I chose through marriage. I'm not perfect, far from it. But, I have always treated my children and other family members with love and respect. Sure, we had set limits. We were very clear as to what you can do and what is not acceptable. My husband and I never spanked either child. We did our best to set a good example.

If you want your child to be polite, then you have to be polite and etc.

Another point, tell your children that you love them and love is not giving them free reign to engage activities that will harm them. Spend time with them. Let them know that you trust and believe in them. And finally, give them roots and wings.

 

[BVS]

And finally, give them roots and wings.

And this is the ultimate balancing act...

It's a line that's almost impossible to define.

 

[A stor]

roots.....a family that loves them

wings....the ability to pursue their dreams

 

[U2Mama]

^ and don't be a "helicopter" parent...drives me nuts!!!

 

[Jive Turkey]

As the plot thickens.....

Thanks for making me laugh! You have a great sense of humor.

Good to see you've got one too

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

(CNN) -- Police in Albuquerque, New Mexico, questioned a Georgia woman after witnesses said they saw her slap her 13-month-old child during a flight, according to police reports.

A flight attendant on a Southwest Airlines flight from Dallas, Texas, to Albuquerque told police she saw the woman "strike the child with an open hand on the face in an attempt to get the child to stop crying," a police report states. The flight attendant also said she saw the mother slapping the child on her legs.

The woman appeared "agitated," the flight attendant said, and the husband was yelling at his wife to shut up due to her screaming at the child, the report states.

During the flight, the flight attendant temporarily took the child from the mother so that the husband could exit his seat and take the child to the back of the plane to attempt to calm her down.

The baby girl had a black eye, which the parents said was from a dog bite from an uncle's Great Dane, the report said.

Both parents were questioned by police and then released on their own recognizance after medical personnel examined the child for injuries. The family then boarded another flight.

Another passenger told police that they heard slaps, and the mother tell her daughter to "shut up" and that "I didn't hit you that hard."

Several passengers were upset by the behavior, the flight attendant told police.

According to the police report, the woman told officers she only slapped her child after she was kicked. And she said she put her finger on the child's mouth in an attempt to get her to be quiet.

Asked if she thought it was okay to hit a 13-month-old baby, the woman nodded to police and said, "She's my daughter," according to the police report.

The flight arrived in Albuquerque around 4:30 p.m. Monday.

In a statement Tuesday, Southwest said that, "The family was having an altercation and their young child was upset. Our flight attendant offered to hold the baby to soothe the child. Out of precaution for the child, Southwest asked that the local authorities meet the aircraft in Albuquerque."

 

[AEON]

of course there are downsides to being a brat -- it's awfully disconcerting when you get out into the "real world" and no one cares about your opinions or thoughts and they want you to just shut up and do your job, for now -- .

yeah, I try to share this concept with my pre-teen. So far, little luck. And if I'm honest with myself, I didn't listen to much advice growing up. It wasn't until I was almost 30 did I realize, "dang, they were right about that."

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

How about this case that's been all over the news? And that guy is a judge. Too late for abuse charges because she's 23 now and it happened 7 years ago (five year statute of limitations). She also has cerebral palsy He did that because she was downloading music illegally. He says she posted it now because he threatened to take her Mercedes away, and that she should have more than a part time job in a video game store. Her mother says she went along with the beatings because he controlled her.

I don't care why she posted it, you are one sick mother f'er "your honor". I was hit with a belt by my father, so I can't even watch it. Just what I saw on tv upset me enough.

They even age restricted the video on You Tube so I can't embed it

Judge William Adams beats daughter for using the internet - YouTube

 

[yolland]

^ LJT posted it in the "Absolutely Disgusted" thread, which is probably more where it belongs; I haven't watched it and don't wish to, but from the descriptions I've read it demonstrates "disciplining" your child about as much as forcing him or her to live on starvation rations would demonstrate "nourishing" your child.

I am struck by how many comments I've seen from people who were themselves abused as children that they wanted to watch the video but had to stop a little way in, because they got flashbacks or anxiety attacks. Some of them said that the screaming and swearing at the child was the worst part both in their own memories and in watching the video, that being repeatedly reminded of the depth of their parent's contempt for them was far worse than the many welts and bruises they got.

 

[Vincent Vega]

This is often an effect of dissociation, a coping strategy developed by many children, and sometimes also adults, chronically abused by their parents, spouses or whoever. Disassociation could be roughly explained as leaving one's body during the time of abuse. It makes you somewhat immune against physical pain or feelings, but what it usually cannot save you from is the mental effects. Generally, mental abuse is much harder to deal with and rarely heals without therapy, whereas physical effects, if not chronic, disappear after some time.

 

[yolland]

This is often an effect of dissociation, a coping strategy developed by many children, and sometimes also adults, chronically abused by their parents, spouses or whoever. Disassociation could be roughly explained as leaving one's body during the time of abuse.

Yes, and it would appear many abusers do something similar, since the father in his public statements (like many accused abusers) seems to be taking the tack of talking about what a lousy, ungrateful kid his daughter is. Maybe more like standing outside your mind than stepping outside your body in that case, but I'd say this too suggests a pretty well-honed ability to 'dissociate' from your part in a situation.

 

[Vincent Vega]

These people are perfect at that. They never see what they are doing, just what the other was doing, and think they are justified in their actions. I'm sure he watches the video and thinks it was perfectly warranted, because she deserved so. For him, it wasn't abuse, it was teaching the child a lesson. And the unthankful brat didn't honour it as such.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

^ LJT posted it in the "Absolutely Disgusted" thread, which is probably more where it belongs; I haven't watched it and don't wish to, but from the descriptions I've read it demonstrates "disciplining" your child about as much as forcing him or her to live on starvation rations would demonstrate "nourishing" your child.

I didn't see that, I only posted it here because believe it or not some people commenting on it actually question whether or not that is abuse or discipline. I can't even grasp how anyone can even question. So I just think it is a critical question for people to ask themselves-when does discipline become abuse? I think the law still grapples with that sometimes too. I didn't watch the whole video because I can't do it, but I don't think I have to either. The part on TV speaks for the whole thing.

People might think they can use a belt and use it one time and stop. But if you do these things in anger and you don't stop yourself, well how can you even pick that belt up? How many belt hits equal discipline, how many equal abuse? Does it even matter how hard you do it?

The person who did that to me, I'm sure they would maintain to their dying day that it was discipline. To me it was clearly abuse. I think anyone is capable of abusing and calling it discipline-not just scum like this guy. He is a family court judge and hears child abuse cases. That's chilling.

 

[yolland]

Concerning that case specifically--I don't think there's any serious question that the behavior in the video goes beyond what the law permits. Both the DA and the Police Chief made it quite clear that Adams would have been in legal trouble, likely felony charges, were the statute of limitations not expired. I haven't noticed many defenses of him at all in reader/viewer comments I've scanned--the vast majority of responses were aghast in tone, and my guess is the statistical handful that weren't could be readily broken into A) trolls looking to stir shit up, B) quasi-trolls who haven't watched the video or read a full article but fancy they're taking some hot air out of PC do-gooders getting self-righteous over an ordinary punishment, and C) people who are abusers themselves instinctively siding with the father (as Judge Adams unsurprisingly turns out to have been criticized for before, from what I've read--bias against the admissibility of abused children's testimony). It's just the nature of chronically exploitative or abusive people (sexually, physically, verbally) that they tend to have an extraordinary ability to project, redirect and rationalize--everything's always someone else's fault, their own responses are always perfectly understandable and normal ("It's not as bad as it looks in the video" Adams shrugged), and people who accuse them of wrong are crazy/liars/hypocrites/backstabbers. Those types aside though, I really don't see many people having much difficulty understanding why both the DA and Police Chief here indicated, Yes, were this not 7 years ago you'd be seeing criminal charges. Sadism and rage aren't the hallmarks of respectable authority figures.

I think most parents would agree that discipline (verbal, physical, situational e.g. grounding, etc.) should never be done reflexively and in anger. I think most would also agree that in most cases, physical discipline done in anger is significantly worse than other forms done in anger. The overall context matters greatly too, and for me that's the toughest part--it's impossible to crystallize decades' worth of one particular family's psychodynamics into verbal recollection of a single incident to someone who doesn't know that context, so there's no one universal experience of having a parent curse at, spank, or ground you against which the 'reasonableness' of a given individual's response could be easily judged.

For all kinds of reasons, the broad parameters of the disciplinary tactics a parent plans to use (what, when, why, how...) should be thought through (and discussed with the other parent, obviously) long before you'll need them. It's important there be a system to it, one that's grounded in your broader vision of parenting and complements its goals, not done impulsively and by the seat of your pants as you go along. At the end of the day and in the big picture, were you consistent, reliable, fair, respectful, supportive and loving towards your child? or were you emotionally chaotic, unreliable, openly biased, condescending, neglectful, resentful? It's not that there aren't specific acts which are a priori beyond the pale, but there's something off-base about treating that as a starting point; that's reactive thinking, 'What would I NEVER do?,' and reactive thinking generally makes a woefully inadequate basis for parenting.

 

[Cin]

This is often an effect of dissociation, a coping strategy developed by many children, and sometimes also adults, chronically abused by their parents, spouses or whoever. Disassociation could be roughly explained as leaving one's body during the time of abuse. It makes you somewhat immune against physical pain or feelings, but what it usually cannot save you from is the mental effects. Generally, mental abuse is much harder to deal with and rarely heals without therapy, whereas physical effects, if not chronic, disappear after some time.

That sounds exactly like my brother in law. He had a rough upbringing but thought he was fine with it. After my nephew was born he became jealous and possessive of my sister, but rarely and always behind closed doors. He got too rough, she left. We were shocked, he seemed like such a cool guy, he explained it like he had no control or feelings, regretted it after and couldn't believe he'd do such a thing. Charges were pressed so he realised the extent of the hurt he'd caused. After quite a few years of therapy, counseliing and just time the family are now living together and much happier than they were before.

 

[ShipOfFools]

I don't think it's ever right to hit a child, under any circumstances.

 

[Liesje]

This one made me sick.

Pastor’s corporal punishment advice scrutinized after child deaths | The Lookout - Yahoo! News

 

[corianderstem]

I can't even read about that book and those horrible, horrible people who killed their children without wanting to throw up.

Absolutely disgusting excuses for human beings.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

TORONTO (Reuters) - Spanking children can cause long-term developmental damage and may even lower a child's IQ, according to a new Canadian analysis that seeks to shift the ethical debate over corporal punishment into the medical sphere.

The study, published this week in the Canadian Medical Association Journal, reached its conclusion after examining 20 years of published research on the issue. The authors say the medical finding have been largely overlooked and overshadowed by concerns that parents should have the right to determine how their children are disciplined.

While spanking is certainly not as widespread as it was 20 years ago, many still cling to the practice and see prohibiting spanking as limiting the rights of parents.

That point of view highlights the difficulty in changing hearts and minds on the issue, despite a mountain of accumulated evidence showing the damage physical punishment can have on a child, says Joan Durant, a professor at University of Manitoba and one of the authors of the study.

"We're really past the point of calling this a controversy. That's a word that's used and I don't know why, because in the research there really is no controversy," she said in an interview.

"If we had this level of consistency in findings in any other area of health, we would be acting on it. We'd be pulling out all the stops to work on the issue."

Durant and co-author Ron Ensom, with the Children's Hospital of Eastern Ontario in Ottawa, cite research showing that physical punishment makes children more aggressive and antisocial, and can cause cognitive impairment and developmental difficulties.

Recent studies suggest it may reduce the brain's grey matter in areas relevant to intelligence testing.

"What people have realized is that physical punishment doesn't only predict aggression consistently, it also predicts internalizing kinds of difficulties, like depression and substance use," said Durant.

"There are no studies that show any long term positive outcomes from physical punishment."

While banned in 32 countries, corporal punishment of children retains at least partial social acceptance in much of the world. Debates on the issue typically revolve around the ethics of using violence to enforce discipline.

With the study, Durant hopes parents will start to look at the issue from a medical perspective.

"What we're hoping is that physicians will take that message and do more to counsel parents around this and to help them understand that physical punishment isn't getting them where they want to go," she said.

She also hopes that countries that allow the practice - including Canada - will take another look at their child protection laws.

Canada is one of more than 190 countries to have ratified the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, a 1989 treaty that sets out protections for children.

The treaty - which has been ratified by all UN member states except for the United States, Somalia and South Sudan - includes a passage stating that countries must protect children from "all forms of physical or mental violence".

"If we had two or three studies that showed that if you took 500 mg of vitamin C a day you could reduce cancer risk, we would all be taking 500 mg of vitamin C a day," Durant said.

"Here, we have more than 80 studies, I would say more than 100, that show the same thing (about corporal punishment), and yet we keep calling it controversial."

 

[Pearl]

I was spanked as a child, and I turned out fine. My IQ is normal and I'm not an aggressive person. Not that I recommend spanking a kid, but sometimes I am baffled by the studies regarding it.

 

[Vincent Vega]

That's why studies are not based on one person alone, and why the word "can" is included.

 

[moiph]

I don't have kids, but I'm the oldest of four and I used to watch my little brothers and cousins, and I plan to have kids some day. I don't really believe that spanking is effective on a kid. I used to get spankings though I don't really remember them. I think time-outs are a much better way to go about things as well as redirecting the kid's behavior. A lot of kids are just really energetic and need something to do. It's also better not to put them in situations where they would be tired/want to throw tantrums. There was actually a recent study that talked about long-term negative repercussions of spankings. While I personally don't feel like I've been traumatized, my fiance said she got the belt and insists on a no-violence policy with our kids because it made her afraid of her parents.

It should also be noted that countries such as Finland, which are way ahead of the United States education wise, made corporal punishment with children illegal decades ago.

 

[yolland]

Kinda surprised this hasn't been posted yet; the story made the rounds late last week. Nothing to do with corporal punishment per se, but it is a rather memorable illustration of how an (ironically) grossly immature parental mindset can turn a normally unremarkable disciplinary tactic--in this case, depriving your disobedient teen of the computer you bought her--into a national media s*storm.

ABC News, Feb. 14

An irate, gun-slinging father has become an Internet sensation after he avenged his daughter’s bratty Facebook post with his own eight-minute rant that ended with his shooting her laptop eight times, apparently prompting a visit from police and child-protection authorities.

Tommy Jordan, an IT worker from Albemarle, N.C., uploaded the clip to YouTube last week and has since had more than 22 million views. He sits in a wooden chair in a field and addresses the camera, discussing daughter Hannah’s recent Facebook wall post, where she complains about her parents’ making her do chores around the house. “I’m tired of picking up after you. You tell me at least once a day to get a job,” Hannah, 15, wrote on Facebook. “I have no idea how I have a life. I’m gonna hate to see the day when you get too old to wipe your a**, and you call me asking for help. I won’t be there.”

Jordan’s lengthy response to his daughter, in which he reveals he is an IT worker who stumbled on to her Facebook post, culminates in his firing eight rounds from his .45-caliber handgun into the laptop. In his response to his daughter, he asks her ”Are you out of your mind?” for complaining about housework and his telling her to get a job. Before destroying the girl’s laptop, Jordan reveals that he had just spent $130 on software to upgrade the PC for her.

Since the video lit up the Internet after Jordan filmed it Feb. 7, he has been visited by both the police and Child Protective Services (CPS), according to a post on his own Facebook wall. He says that the police told him “Kudos, sir,” and that he received a thank you from the entire detective’s squad, and that CPS was comfortable with him as a parent after the visit. “The kind lady from Child Protective Services looked all through the house, the yard, and found ours to be a healthy home,” Jordan wrote. “She wasn’t at all scared of me but I could tell she doesn’t like guns as a general rule. To each their own though. She was comfortable that I was adhering to NC gun safety regulations for the protection of minors, and that’s all she needed.”

...Although the clip has more than 246,000 likes on YouTube, it has more than 21,000 dislikes, and has triggered debate about the merits of taking to YouTube and the use of a firearm. The debate has also included the question of how helpful such a ”tough love” tactic is for adolescents, compared to a conversation with the children.

The fallout from the clip appears to be a mixed bag for Jordan. He has explained on his Facebook page that he has had to chase the media from his lawn, and does not appear to want to do any interviews about the clip or his thoughts on parenting. Still, he has not made no effort to protect his privacy on Facebook or on YouTube, where once can view a number of clips he has uploaded. Jordan has, however, managed to flip the controversy into generating donations for a cause that appears to be close to his heart, he says, raising more than $5,000 for an area Muscular Dystrophy Association drive. His daughter, Hannah, might even benefit from the attention: The manager of Morgan’s Dairy Bar, a nearby coffee and ice cream shop, posted a response clip online offering the young girl her first job.

 

[Diemen]

Still, he has not made no effort

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

A 9-year-old Alabama girl died on Monday after allegedly being forced to run for three hours as a punishment for lying about eating a candy bar.

The girl, Savannah Hardin, was reportedly forced to run on the afternoon of Friday Feb. 17 by her grandmother and stepmother. According to the Birmingham News, her stepmother, Jessica Mae Hardin, called 911 at 6:45 p.m. and reported that Savannah was having a seizure and was unresponsive.

She was taken to Children's Hospital in Birmingham, Ala., where she died after being taken off life support on Monday.

A state pathologist ruled the third grader's death a homicide, and her body has been sent to Huntsville, Ala., for an autopsy, reports the Birmingham News. Preliminary reports indicated that Savannah was extremely dehydrated and had very low sodium levels.

According to AP reports, Savannah had a very common bladder condition and could not handle the caffeine in a chocolate bar. It is not believed, however, that the bladder condition contributed to her death.

Jessica Hardin, 27, her stepmother, and Joyce Hardin Garrard, 46, her grandmother, are being charged with murder. Etowah County District Attorney Jimmie Harp told the AP that he may pursue capital murder charges, which could carry the death sentence.

According to local reports, police became involved when concerned citizens called and reported that they witnessed Hardin being forced to run.

Police are still trying to figure out if Savannah was forced to run by physical coercion or by verbal commands, according to AP.

"It's sad when a family is grieving over the death of a daughter and granddaughter and so soon to find out that the death could have been prevented," Sheriff Todd Entrekin told the Birmingham News. "My thoughts and prayers are with the family."