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Old 08-27-2008, 11:30 PM   #211
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I feel exactly the opposite. I fear for the country should these two get elected.
Duh. You support the other candidate. Do you expect me to be shocked by that revelation? I fear for the country should McCain get elected. It's mind-blowing, I know.
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Old 08-27-2008, 11:38 PM   #212
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I feel exactly the opposite. I fear for the country should these two get elected.
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Duh. You support the other candidate. Do you expect me to be shocked by that revelation? I fear for the country should McCain get elected. It's mind-blowing, I know.
And I'm pretty sure the country will survive no matter which one is elected.
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Old 08-27-2008, 11:40 PM   #213
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brilliant formulation, and goes to the root of what distinguishes democrats from republicans, ties together foreign and domestic policy. the world needs us to be as good as the Republicans want to say we are. fuck exceptionalism. fuck empty nationalism. fuck blind patriotism. this line gets to the heart of why Republicanism has been eviscerated the past 8 years to reveal the empty, greedy, black heart that beats at it's core. it's about me, me, me, and how awesome am i, and what big bombs we have, and what power we can toss around, and who the fuck is out there and wants to fuck with us because goddamnit i got a great big bomb.
Thats just absurd. If even a quarter of it were true, Bush would have never been re-elected President, nor would the current Presidential race be dead locked at the moment, 2 months before election day.


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but we don't prove we're better with bombs. we don't bomb people into freedom. we don't occupy people into freedom. we do just the opposite.
Military intervention is sometimes necessary and can help to create stability and the conditions under which freedom can develop. Even Bill Clinton understood this with the multiple military interventions and strikes his administration engaged in, in the 1990s.
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Old 08-27-2008, 11:41 PM   #214
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And I'm pretty sure the country will survive no matter which one is elected.
True. But it's fun to say stuff like that.
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Old 08-27-2008, 11:42 PM   #215
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Thats just absurd. If even a quarter of it were true, Bush would have never been re-elected President, nor would the current Presidential race be dead locked at the moment, 2 months before election day.

did you even read what i wrote? do you have any analysis to offer at all?



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Military intervention is sometimes necessary and can help to create stability and the conditions under which freedom can develop. Even Bill Clinton understood this with the multiple military interventions and strikes his administration engaged in, in the 1990s.

as Obama has said, "i don't oppose all wars, i just oppose dumb wars."

iraq was a DUMB war.
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Old 08-27-2008, 11:46 PM   #216
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I didn't say that. However, he has made clear he would try diplomatic efforts first and use military force only as a last resort. Anyone, anyone who would ever do anything otherwise is an idiot at best and a complete monster at worst.

Actually you said the following:

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Anyone who would even consider military action, *coughBombBombBombIrancough*, clearly does not understand the ramifications of launching another invasion in an unstable Middle East
Obama is definitely on the record as being one who would consider military action against Iran.
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Old 08-27-2008, 11:51 PM   #217
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Actually you said the following:



Obama is definitely on the record as being one who would consider military action against Iran.
As a last resort. In her(her, right?) first post, u2isthebest said that military force/war should only be a last resort, always. In the second post, she happened to leave out those words, 'last resort', but her meaning was the same, and I think you know that. Obama said he would talk to leaders in Iran and other countries in the region, and that he would consider military action against Iran as a last resort, if absolutely all other avenues failed. This keeps with what u2isthebest was saying. I think you know exactly what she meant, and I think you are twisting words to meet your own arguments.
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Old 08-27-2008, 11:52 PM   #218
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I think you know exactly what she meant, and I think you are twisting words to meet your own arguments.


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Old 08-28-2008, 12:02 AM   #219
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did you even read what i wrote?
Did you?

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do you have any analysis to offer at all?
Well, there is not really much to analyze here, but in attempting to describe the difference between the Democrats and the Republicans on Foreign Policy you said "f$%*" five times and described the Republicans as being dark and evil wanting to bomb the whole world to show everyone who is boss. Its what some of the far left of the Democratic Party certainly thinks of Republicans, but not even moderate Democrats would agree with that.


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as Obama has said, "i don't oppose all wars, i just oppose dumb wars."

iraq was a DUMB war.
Leaving Saddam in power in Iraq, as Barack Obama wanted to do, would have been DUMB. As Iraq continues to successfuly develop, more and more people will come to realize that fact.
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Old 08-28-2008, 12:10 AM   #220
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Joe Biden gave a great speech. He is, as Irvine said awhile back, a shit kicker. He isn't afraid to get tough and say what needs to be said.
Of coarse when a Republican "gets tough and says what needs to be said" he's not called a "shit kicker" he's called...
(all together now)
"mean spirited."
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Old 08-28-2008, 12:16 AM   #221
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The Democrats made some nice, tender lurches towards attacking McCain. Though I wish they'd stop watering down their own arguments by saying "He's a good, honorable man, who has sacrificed much for his country".

Ok. You don't need this disclaimer if you're not attacking him personally, so go ahead and blast his policies. In the Twin Cities when Republicans talk about Obama I doubt they'll praise his charming life story when they're wailing about tax and spend and Iraq surrender and whatever.
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Old 08-28-2008, 12:20 AM   #222
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The Democrats made some nice, tender lurches towards attacking McCain. Though I wish they'd stop watering down their own arguments by saying "He's a good, honorable man, who has sacrificed much for his country".

Ok. You don't need this disclaimer if you're not attacking him personally, so go ahead and blast his policies. In the Twin Cities when Republicans talk about Obama I doubt they'll praise his charming life story when they're wailing about tax and spend and Iraq surrender and whatever.
But maybe they're trying to do something honorable in that regard. Maybe they're trying to prove that they can win an election without sinking to the level of the attack-at-all-costs Republican mentality of recent years. Maybe they're trying to take the high road here. Maybe you can say that you fear that, unfortunately, the high road may not win, but I don't think you can really fault them for trying to be honorable and trying to win on the high road.
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Old 08-28-2008, 12:22 AM   #223
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Well, there is not really much to analyze here, but in attempting to describe the difference between the Democrats and the Republicans on Foreign Policy you said "f$%*" five times and described the Republicans as being dark and evil wanting to bomb the whole world to show everyone who is boss. Its what some of the far left of the Democratic Party certainly thinks of Republicans, but not even moderate Democrats would agree with that.

you have FAILED at the single task presented to you after 9-11. bring Bin Laden to justice. instead, you used it as an excuse to invade Iraq, shred the constitution, and allow torture to become common practice.

look at McCain's history and how he's responded to the crisis in Georgia. it is one of bellicosity. one that says, "don't fuck with us." it has no time for the neocon good-vs-evil constant state of warfare. that will not do anything to curb Jihadism. yes, as i've said, as Obama said, OF COURSE there are time when military action is needed. but military action is a sign of FAILURE. it's a sign that diplomacy has failed. we need shrewd diplomacy and an actual understanding of the cultures we are dealing with and the knowledge that strength is oftentimes restraint.

bombs are not an effective geopolitical tool. war is an absolute last resort.




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Leaving Saddam in power in Iraq, as Barack Obama wanted to do, would have been DUMB. As Iraq continues to successfuly develop, more and more people will come to realize that fact.

sorry, kiddo, no one accepts the false pretense of your statement.
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Old 08-28-2008, 12:23 AM   #224
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Of coarse when a Republican "gets tough and says what needs to be said" he's not called a "shit kicker" he's called...
(all together now)
"mean spirited."


you cannot even compare the McCain ads to the Obama ads.

it's just not in the same ballpark.

even you must see that.
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Old 08-28-2008, 12:25 AM   #225
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My wife a blood blue liberal walked out on Biden's speech saying my karaoke singing is better than Joe's speaking skills.

She wanted Hil and Irvine you must be drunk.
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