Democratic Advantage in Party Affiliation Shrinks

The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Ownership by the federal government of two car companies and nine national banks isn't status quo. Not in this country anyway.

This really is a weak argument. It doesn't matter if it was Obama, McCain or INDY as the President they would have all ended up doing the same, no economist in their right mind could find another solution. It's just conveinent for the Hannity folks that a Dem was the one who did it so that they can keep talking about it...

The free market failed, as it will sometimes, it's something you have to face.
 
I agree. But I think in a presidential race Obama could pretty easily do an 'about face' on his 04 campaign rhetoric about Afghanistan being the 'right' war...and blame Bush for 8 years of underfunding and undermanning the fight there. Which is probably true.

What also is probably true is the country doesn't have the culture, the infrastructure, educated population, or natural resources to make it a viable place for nation-building or pacification. Under Bush or Obama.

Or the British. Or the Soviets. (from years gone by)



we don't often agree, but i do want to say that i appreciate your sensible, informed posts.

i'm coming to the same tragic conclusion about Afghanistan.
 
Ownership by the federal government of two car companies and nine national banks isn't status quo. Not in this country anyway.

These days, you're almost tied with Strongbow as the most predictably partial neo-con bot. The financial crisis started under Bush's watch. Most of those companies were in the process of being nationalised under Bush's watch. You do understand that don't you? I charted it all here. No FYM regular has any excuse not to know what was happening because I outlined what was happening in real time and what was going to happen right here.
 
The free market failed, as it will sometimes, it's something you have to face.


"Governments and central banks were responsible for making credit too cheap - encouraging debt, and punishing savers. Bankers were merely the agents, the expression of something deeper. This was a government-created crisis. It would never have happened in a genuinely free market." - Ambrose Evans-Pritchard
 
These days, you're almost tied with Strongbow as the most predictably partial neo-con bot.
Opposing the nationalization of banks and auto companies, minimizing government interference in the markets, that is the position of a traditional conservative. A neo-con might actually support such policies.

So if you insist on calling me a bot then jeez, at least get my programming language correct.
The financial crisis started under Bush's watch. Most of those companies were in the process of being nationalised under Bush's watch. You do understand that don't you? I charted it all here. No FYM regular has any excuse not to know what was happening because I outlined what was happening in real time and what was going to happen right here.


I'm fully aware of the timeline, but let us see if the president truly wishes to see these companies become self-sustainable and profitable again or remain very large and expensive "make-work" programs.

"Governments and central banks were responsible for making credit too cheap - encouraging debt, and punishing savers. Bankers were merely the agents, the expression of something deeper. This was a government-created crisis. It would never have happened in a genuinely free market." - Ambrose Evans-Pritchard
And if you concur then I agree with you 100%.
 
From 2005-2008, whenever polls negative towards Bush were mentioned, you told us the result of the 2004 Presidential election was the only result that mattered.

It was the only thing that mattered when it came to foreign policy and national security policy. The negative poll results changed nothing when it came to policy.

The reason I brought up this particular poll was because some in here had declared the Republican party to be dead and buried with the election of Barack Obama. Thats definitely not the case.
 
These days, you're almost tied with Strongbow as the most predictably partial neo-con bot.

The small minority of Republicans that come to this forum are anything but "bots". In addition, even Barack Obama would fit under your definition of neo-con as would probably every US President since FDR.

The financial crisis started under Bush's watch. Most of those companies were in the process of being nationalised under Bush's watch. You do understand that don't you? I charted it all here. No FYM regular has any excuse not to know what was happening because I outlined what was happening in real time and what was going to happen right here.

I think most people realize that and its also important to note that many of the problems that help lead to the financial crises started even before Bush came to office. I support what Obama is doing to try and stimulate the economy.
 
It was the only thing that mattered when it came to foreign policy and national security policy.

You are on record on this forum, time and again, as saying that polls indicating reduced support for the Bush administration were of no importance on the basis that the 2004 Presidential election result was the only poll that mattered.

As such, you now claiming that what you were really saying was that the Presidential election result of 2004 'the only thing that mattered when it came to foreign policy and national security policy' is not simply an evasive misrepresentation of your own previously expressed point of view, but a simple, basic, straightforward lie.
 
The small minority of Republicans that come to this forum are anything but "bots".

Most of them aren't exactly singing your praises, which is interesting.

In addition, even Barack Obama would fit under your definition of neo-con as would probably every US President since FDR.

I would view Obama as an interventionist liberal rather than a neo-con.


I think most people realize that and its also important to note that many of the problems that help lead to the financial crises started even before Bush came to office.

Drivel. You don't have a clue about economic issues. You've demonstrated that time and again.
 
Opposing the nationalization of banks and auto companies, minimizing government interference in the markets, that is the position of a traditional conservative. A neo-con might actually support such policies.

I'm fully aware of the timeline, but let us see if the president truly wishes to see these companies become self-sustainable and profitable again or remain very large and expensive "make-work" programs.

The difference is, Bush was elected on the platform of fiscal conservatism.

Obama was elected on the platform of being a left wing interventionist, so unlike Bush, he is being consistent.
 
You are on record on this forum, time and again, as saying that polls indicating reduced support for the Bush administration were of no importance on the basis that the 2004 Presidential election result was the only poll that mattered.

As such, you now claiming that what you were really saying was that the Presidential election result of 2004 'the only thing that mattered when it came to foreign policy and national security policy'.

Nope, in terms of what was relevant as far as public opinion, the 2004 election still stands head and shoulders above any of the individual polls posted during that time period. They also definitely did not matter in terms of impact on Presidential policy which is what I thought you were initially refering too.

Not sure why your bringing this up in a thread comparing polls of party affiliation.
 
The difference is, Bush was elected on the platform of fiscal conservatism.

Bush was a fine supply-side conservative (lowering taxes to stimulate economic growth with subsequent increases in treasury receipts). But he turned out to be a lousy fiscal conservative with huge increases in government spending, the national debt and a new federal entitlement all occurring under his watch. Not to mention TARP and the early rounds of auto bailouts.
Obama was elected on the platform of being a left wing interventionist, so unlike Bush, he is being consistent.

No, he was sold as a consensus oriented centrist or moderate.
 
Most of them aren't exactly singing your praises, which is interesting.








Drivel. You don't have a clue about economic issues. You've demonstrated that time and again.

Well, care to elaborate? Or is this just more baby talk?
 
Bush was a fine supply-side conservative (lowering taxes to stimulate economic growth with subsequent increases in treasury receipts). But he turned out to be a lousy fiscal conservative with huge increases in government spending, the national debt and a new federal entitlement all occurring under his watch. Not to mention TARP and the early rounds of auto bailouts.

Agreed.

No, he was sold as a consensus oriented centrist or moderate.

Yes, but we all know that really means. People read between the lines and voted for their bailouts and they got them - at least, that's my take.

Interesting article here:

Adam Smith would not be optimistic in today's economic world - Telegraph
 
Well, care to elaborate?

Absolutely.

http://www.u2interference.com/forums/f199/oil-prices-at-year-end-2008-a-187099.html

http://www.u2interference.com/forum...ng-of-the-60-year-post-war-bubble-189114.html

http://www.u2interference.com/forums/f199/lets-talk-about-stocks-190122.html

10-08-2008:
financeguy said:
I think shorting the euro, shorting the GBP, shorting oil are better opportunities at present. Long gold, perhaps, but if were talking humungous scale deflation, maybe not.

I remain to be convinced stocks are at bottom.

http://www.u2interference.com/forums/f199/iceland-the-canary-in-the-coalmine-191072.html

http://www.u2interference.com/forums/f199/europe-dithers-while-its-banks-collapse-190095.html

http://www.u2interference.com/forum...your-brave-new-world-of-austerity-189815.html

http://www.u2interference.com/forums/f290/property-market-meltdown-spain-ireland-188175.html

http://www.u2interference.com/forum...-rescuing-spanish-banks-on-the-qt-183696.html

http://www.u2interference.com/forums/f290/bushs-bailout-183386.html

http://www.u2interference.com/forums/f290/communist-manifesto-successfully-implemented-189055.html

http://www.u2interference.com/forums/f199/subprime-credit-crunch-179451-3.html

11-11-07:
financeguy said:
I think it would be a brave investor, at this point, that would be buying bank stocks. That's not to say there aren't value bank stocks out there - there probably are - but how does the ordinary investor know what losses are buried where, when even the rating agencies don't?

If, like me, you believe there's a lot more S.H.I.T. out there, then:-

Short banking stocks, buy gold, buy the Swiss franc.

(This is not, of course, formal investment advice.)

I posted a bunch of links to articles I previously posted but I also specifically quoted just two very specific predictions, more or less at random. I don't have time to go through all my old posts on economic issues. However, I think in general, it's fair to say most of what I said was more or less on the ball.

Any questions? Where's your record?
 
Any questions? Where's your record?

Well, lets do this one more time since it appears you don't understand what you actually wrote before.

Originally Posted by financeguy
Most of them aren't exactly singing your praises, which is interesting.

Drivel. You don't have a clue about economic issues. You've demonstrated that time and again.

Well, care to elaborate? HINT: elaborating on the above does not involve listing your financial predictions.
 
I'm fully aware of the timeline, but let us see if the president truly wishes to see these companies become self-sustainable and profitable again or remain very large and expensive "make-work" programs.

So because you ASSUME he doesn't want them to be self-sustainable, that's why you ignore Bush's role in this?

You really do believe what they are selling you? Wow...
 
Closing The Book On The Bush Legacy

Thursday's annual Census Bureau report on income, poverty and access to health care-the Bureau's principal report card on the well-being of average Americans-closes the books on the economic record of George W. Bush.

It's not a record many Republicans are likely to point to with pride.

On every major measurement, the Census Bureau report shows that the country lost ground during Bush's two terms. While Bush was in office, the median household income declined, poverty increased, childhood poverty increased even more, and the number of Americans without health insurance spiked. By contrast, the country's condition improved on each of those measures during Bill Clinton's two terms, often substantially.

The Census' final report card on Bush's record presents an intriguing backdrop to today's economic debate. Bush built his economic strategy around tax cuts, passing large reductions both in 2001 and 2003. Congressional Republicans are insisting that a similar agenda focused on tax cuts offers better prospects of reviving the economy than President Obama's combination of some tax cuts with heavy government spending. But the bleak economic results from Bush's two terms, tarnish, to put it mildly, the idea that tax cuts represent an economic silver bullet.

Economists would cite many reasons why presidential terms are an imperfect frame for tracking economic trends. The business cycle doesn't always follow the electoral cycle. A president's economic record is heavily influenced by factors out of his control. Timing matters and so does good fortune.

But few would argue that national economic policy is irrelevant to economic outcomes. And rightly or wrongly, voters still judge presidents and their parties largely by the economy's performance during their watch. In that assessment, few measures do more than the Census data to answer the threshold question of whether a president left the day to day economic conditions of average Americans better than he found it.
If that's the test, today's report shows that Bush flunked on every relevant dimension-and not just because of the severe downturn that began last year.

Consider first the median income. When Bill Clinton left office after 2000, the median income-the income line around which half of households come in above, and half fall below-stood at $52,500 (measured in inflation-adjusted 2008 dollars). When Bush left office after 2008, the median income had fallen to $50,303. That's a decline of 4.2 per cent.

That leaves Bush with the dubious distinction of becoming the only president in recent history to preside over an income decline through two presidential terms, notes Lawrence Mishel, president of the left-leaning Economic Policy Institute. The median household income increased during the two terms of Clinton (by 14 per cent, as we'll see in more detail below), Ronald Reagan (8.1 per cent), and Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford (3.9 per cent). As Mishel notes, although the global recession decidedly deepened the hole-the percentage decline in the median income from 2007 to 2008 is the largest single year fall on record-average families were already worse off in 2007 than they were in 2000, a remarkable result through an entire business expansion. "What is phenomenal about the years under Bush is that through the entire business cycle from 2000 through 2007, even before this recession...working families were worse off at the end of the recovery, in the best of times during that period, than they were in 2000 before he took office," Mishel says.
Bush's record on poverty is equally bleak. When Clinton left office in 2000, the Census counted almost 31.6 million Americans living in poverty. When Bush left office in 2008, the number of poor Americans had jumped to 39.8 million (the largest number in absolute terms since 1960.) Under Bush, the number of people in poverty increased by over 8.2 million, or 26.1 per cent. Over two-thirds of that increase occurred before the economic collapse of 2008.

The trends were comparably daunting for children in poverty. When Clinton left office nearly 11.6 million children lived in poverty, according to the Census. When Bush left office that number had swelled to just under 14.1 million, an increase of more than 21 per cent.

The story is similar again for access to health care. When Clinton left office, the number of uninsured Americans stood at 38.4 million. By the time Bush left office that number had grown to just over 46.3 million, an increase of nearly 8 million or 20.6 per cent.

The trends look the same when examining shares of the population that are poor or uninsured, rather than the absolute numbers in those groups. When Clinton left office in 2000 13.7 per cent of Americans were uninsured; when Bush left that number stood at 15.4 per cent. (Under Bush, the share of Americans who received health insurance through their employer declined every year of his presidency-from 64.2 per cent in 2000 to 58.5 per cent in 2008.)

When Clinton left the number of Americans in poverty stood at 11.3 per cent; when Bush left that had increased to 13.2 per cent. The poverty rate for children jumped from 16.2 per cent when Clinton left office to 19 per cent when Bush stepped down.

Every one of those measurements had moved in a positive direction under Clinton. The median income increased from $46,603 when George H.W. Bush left office in 1992 to $52,500 when Clinton left in 2000-an increase of 14 per cent. The number of Americans in poverty declined from 38 million when the elder Bush left office in 1992 to 31.6 million when Clinton stepped down-a decline of 6.4 million or 16.9 per cent. Not since the go-go years of the John F. Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson administrations during the 1960s, which coincided with the launch of the Great Society, had the number of poor Americans declined as much over two presidential terms.

The number of children in poverty plummeted from 15.3 million when H.W. Bush left office in 1992 to 11.6 million when Clinton stepped down in 2000-a stunning decline of 24 per cent. (That was partly because welfare reform forced single mothers into the workforce at the precise moment they could take advantage of a growing economy. The percentage of female-headed households in poverty stunningly dropped from 39 per cent in 1992 to 28.5 per cent in 2000, still the lowest level for that group the Census has ever recorded. That number has now drifted back up to over 31 per cent.) The number of Americans without health insurance remained essentially stable during Clinton's tenure, declining from 38.6 million when the elder Bush stepped down in 1992 to 38.4 million in 2000.

Looking at the trends by shares of the population, rather than absolute numbers, reinforces the story: The overall poverty rate and the poverty rate among children both declined sharply under Clinton, and the share of Americans without health insurance fell more modestly.

So the summary page on the economic experience of average Americans under the past two presidents would look like this:
Under Clinton, the median income increased 14 per cent. Under Bush it declined 4.2 per cent.

Under Clinton the total number of Americans in poverty declined 16.9 per cent; under Bush it increased 26.1 per cent.

Under Clinton the number of children in poverty declined 24.2 per cent; under Bush it increased by 21.4 per cent.

Under Clinton, the number of Americans without health insurance, remained essentially even (down six-tenths of one per cent); under Bush it increased by 20.6 per cent.
Adding Ronald Reagan's record to the comparison fills in the picture from another angle.

Under Reagan, the median income grew, in contrast to both Bush the younger and Bush the elder. (The median income declined 3.2 per cent during the elder Bush's single term.) When Reagan was done, the median income stood at $47, 614 (again in constant 2008 dollars), 8.1 per cent higher than when Jimmy Carter left office in 1980.

But despite that income growth, both overall and childhood poverty were higher when Reagan rode off into the sunset than when he arrived. The number of poor Americans increased from 29.3 million in 1980 to 31.7 million in 1988, an increase of 8.4 per cent. The number of children in poverty trended up from 11.5 million when Carter left to 12.5 million when Reagan stepped down, a comparable increase of 7.9 per cent. The total share of Americans in poverty didn't change over Reagan's eight years (at 13 per cent), but the share of children in poverty actually increased (from 18.3 to 19.5 per cent) despite the median income gains.
The past rarely settles debates about the future.

The fact that the economy performed significantly better for average families under Clinton than under the elder or younger Bush or Ronald Reagan doesn't conclusively answer how the country should proceed now. Obama isn't replicating the Clinton economic strategy (which increased federal spending in areas like education and research much more modestly, and placed greater emphasis on deficit reduction-to the point of increasing taxes in his first term). Nor has anyone suggested that it would make sense to reprise that approach in today's conditions. But at the least, the wretched two-term record compiled by the younger Bush on income, poverty and access to health care should compel Republicans to answer a straightforward question: if tax cuts are truly the best means to stimulate broadly shared prosperity, why did the Bush years yield such disastrous results for American families on these core measures of economic well being?

--National Journal researcher Cameron Joseph contributed.



i look forward to seeing all the posters being held up by the teabaggers having pictures of Bush and Cheney and blaming them for the massive deficits. :up:
 
only the queen can save america now.

one day the union jack will fly above the white house, as the governor general receives orders from london.

it's the great reclamation project, guys.
 
only the queen can save america now.

one day the union jack will fly above the white house, as the governor general receives orders from london.

it's the great reclamation project, guys.




the only thing that can save us are lower taxes and more deregulation.

yee-HAW!
 
only the queen can save america now.

one day the union jack will fly above the white house, as the governor general receives orders from london.

it's the great reclamation project, guys.

On a similar note, as you know, there's a lovely election going to happen soon up here in the Great White North, and, looking at 3-4 options up here (if one wishes to count the ever-elusive Green Party and discount the forever-separatist BQ), it makes me glad I can't vote. I don't think I like any of them. So much for multi-party politics allowing for "more options."

The first party willing to take on the latent, but pervasive political and corporate oligarchy up here would get my vote.
 
On a similar note, as you know, there's a lovely election going to happen soon up here in the Great White North, and, looking at 3-4 options up here (if one wishes to count the ever-elusive Green Party and discount the forever-separatist BQ), it makes me glad I can't vote. I don't think I like any of them. So much for multi-party politics allowing for "more options."

The first party willing to take on the latent, but pervasive political and corporate oligarchy up here would get my vote.

Can you elaborate on this?
From your observations, is the political and corporate oligarchy more pervasive in the Canada than in the US or Europe, and does it take on a similar form, or is its agenda different?
 
i look forward to seeing all the posters being held up by the teabaggers having pictures of Bush and Cheney and blaming them for the massive deficits. :up:

Well, if you only evaluate a Presidency by two months, the month they come into office, and the month they leave office, then those figures seem to make sense. But both Clintons time in office and Bush's time in office were much greater than 2 months. Both administrations were in office for 8 years. If your going to accurately assess both administrations, you need to consider data for the entire time period. The Bush years saw an early recession from which it recovered from and had several years of strong economic growth and reduction in poverty rates that you miss when you just look at January 2001 and January 2009.

So lets take a look at the averages for the entire time period both administrations were in office, something that considers the entire time period rather than just the narrow begining and ending point. To much happens in an 8 year period to narrowly just focus on two months out of 8 years.





The Average National Federal Debt as a percentage of GDP:

Clinton Years 64.5%
Bush Years 63.0%



Average GDP growth rate:

Clinton Years 5.8%
Bush Years 4.8%



Average Annual Poverty Rate:

Clinton Years 13.29%
Bush Years 12.45%



Average Annual Inflation Rate:

Clinton Years 2.60%
Bush Years 2.84%



Average Annual Unemployment Rate:

Clinton Years 5.21%
Bush Years 5.27%




So, the Bush years beat the Clinton years on poverty, and debt as a percentage of GDP, while the Clinton years win narrowly on unemployment and inflation, and GDP growth.

If not for 2008, Bush years would have beat the Clinton years on Unemployment.
 
Average GDP growth rate:

Clinton Years 5.8%
Bush Years 4.8%

while the Clinton years win narrowly on unemployment and inflation, and GDP growth.

Interesting definition of 'narrow win', in the case of GDP growth. These figures imply that GDP increased by 57% in total under Clinton and 46% in total under Bush. In other words, the improvement GDP was 25% higher under Clinton.

Narrow win, indeed. :lol:
 
Interesting definition of 'narrow win', in the case of GDP growth. These figures imply that GDP increased by 57% in total under Clinton and 46% in total under Bush. In other words, the improvement GDP was 25% higher under Clinton.

Narrow win, indeed. :lol:

The difference in GDP was not narrow, but the difference in unemployment and inflation definitely was narrow. An average annual GDP growth rate of 4.8% is a growth rate any modern developed country would be pleased with.
 
The difference in GDP was not narrow, but the difference in unemployment and inflation definitely was narrow. An average annual GDP growth rate of 4.8% is a growth rate any modern developed country would be pleased with.

I'm glad you have now accepted the figures you yourself cited demonstrate that the difference in GDP growth was not narrow. But, as I said, I think you make far too much of these types of comparisons.
 
The difference in GDP was not narrow, but the difference in unemployment and inflation definitely was narrow. An average annual GDP growth rate of 4.8% is a growth rate any modern developed country would be pleased with.

I'm glad you have now accepted the figures you yourself cited demonstrate that the difference in GDP growth was not narrow. But, as I said, I think you make far too much of these types of simplistic comparisons.
 
I'm glad you have now accepted the figures you yourself cited demonstrate that the difference in GDP growth was not narrow. But, as I said, I think you make far too much of these types of simplistic comparisons.


Sorry, but that was a typo mistake. Sorry you have become hung up and obssessed about it. I never meant to say or imply that the difference in GDP growth was narrow.
 
Back
Top Bottom