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Old 08-21-2009, 08:43 PM   #1
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Cultural differences are superficial

Economic differences matter.

What do you think?
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Old 08-21-2009, 09:13 PM   #2
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I'm not sure that I agree, though I could be misinterpreting you.

I would have to admit that at this point I have a pretty class-based view of society.

My view, essentially, is that both the upper class and under class are largely composed of scum bags and wasters that essentially exploit, and live of - in a parasitic fashion, basically - us hard working, middle of the road types. In other words, us types that actually bother studying hard at school and don't rely on handouts unless we really have to. People that go to college through their own merits and not family connections. People that get jobs through their own merits and not being borne into the right class. People that lose their jobs because some fucking CEO that has most of his money invested in an offshore jurisdiction - and in the court of conscience, if not in an actual court, probably should be in jail - decides to take advantage of a recessionary period and fire expendable human resources.

I think it's time that the middle class and working class reasserted themselves. We've paid their way for a long time. Maybe we should stop. Maybe there's even a time at which we should take to the streets. Or maybe we should just start by thinking for ourselves.

The upper class invent all the wars, all the lies. They buy and pay PR people to sell the wars and the lies, and they are also experts at buying the right sort of legal advice to get them out of trouble any time the heat comes on.

Every single thing that was sold in the Greenspan/Bush/Cheney bubble of 2000-2006 has been exposed a complete fucking fraud. The bubble was a lie. I called it on here, in 2005/06/07, and posted at the time accordingly. I was a bit ahead of the posse, but not that much. It isn't that difficult. I am not a market genius, but I can make an educated guess on what way things are going to go. Hardly anything that has happened since has surprised me at all.

Any middle class/working class person that isn't angry right now is probably delusional, IMO. The best thing - and I think Purpleoscar has, quite rightly, made this point before - is to financially protect ourselves, in the best way we can.

That's my rant du jour - take it or leave it, gang.

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Old 08-21-2009, 09:50 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by AliEnvy View Post
Economic differences matter.
Well, yes, although different cultures evolved with different attitudes towards money and personal property, and the culture with the most positive attitude towards it, the culture that evolved from the its Greco-Roman cradle, ended up dominating after it imploded and found its way out of manorialism. But cultures tend to take on a much, much more western attitude when they have high money circulation, and western cultures that have low money circulation shy away from their own individualistic foundations (how different in the fundamentals was Spanish mercantalism from Confucianism?).
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Old 08-21-2009, 09:53 PM   #4
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Financeguy, your expressed views trouble me. You're always on about this meat-in-the-sandwich scenario. It's not wholly without merit, but you should read up on Australia's 1930s New Guard sometime. You'll find some unpleasant parallels.

I'll part with this: your obsession with the 'underclasses' overlooks their frank lack of power. The top of the pyramid, I'll give you: and I suspect they regard everyone beneath in equally dismissive terms.

Take it to the streets? Incremental taking back of democratic government - the only game in town apart from corporate power, in case you wonder why I am a social democrat - is the only way to 'protect yourself'. I doubt anyone on this forum has the means to join a gated community.
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Old 08-21-2009, 09:58 PM   #5
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Or to put it another way, I think of who was responsible for the Greenspan/Bush/Cheney bubble of 2000-2006, and it certainly wasn't readers of The Sun.
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Old 08-21-2009, 10:08 PM   #6
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Or to put it another way, I think of who was responsible for the Greenspan/Bush/Cheney bubble of 2000-2006, and it certainly wasn't readers of The Sun.
Erhm. Did you miss this bit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by financeguy
The upper class invent all the wars, all the lies. They buy and pay PR people to sell the wars and the lies, and they are also experts at buying the right sort of legal advice to get them out of trouble any time the heat comes on.
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Old 08-21-2009, 10:14 PM   #7
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I think it depends on how you define "culture". This is a word that I think gets quite abused and misused...

I mean to be quite honest, I don't know which cultural definition I would fit into...

I think some "cultures" are defined by economics...

At the end of the day, I think it's all intertwined somewhat.
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Old 08-21-2009, 10:21 PM   #8
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Erhm. Did you miss this bit?
No, no I didn't miss it. But the overall post implies, to me, that war on both uppers and lowers would be the correct course of action. I'd hate to see a middle class revolt that just ended up being a bunch of angry mums-n'-dads beating up some dole recipients. Cause, the ones at the top? They're hard to get to.
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Old 08-21-2009, 10:36 PM   #9
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I'd hate to see a middle class revolt that just ended up being a bunch of angry mums-n'-dads beating up some dole recipients. Cause, the ones at the top? They're hard to get to.
Right. Ok. That's a fair point.

But consider this.

Fred Goodwin, a key player in the UK banking collapses, a key man in the property bubble, and what's more - by most accounts - an exploitative bullying c*** if ever there was one - the type of sociopathic c*** that sacks hundreds of staff purely for the sake of the bottom line and advancing his own career - was forced to leave the UK owing to social pressure and the approbation of the normal average UK taxpayer.

Sir Fred Goodwin: the RBS chief who bet the bank and lost - Telegraph


So it is by no means impossible to exert pressure on the upper tiers, provided it is targeted.

These gated communities you mentioned aren't necessarily so impregnable if the middle class asserts itself.
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Old 08-21-2009, 11:00 PM   #10
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Yeah, fair enough.

With regard to gated communities, I was riffing off something you were agreeing with Purpleoscar about: namely gated enclaves (or some similar principle; and my choice of words alone, admittedly) as a lifeboat for the angry middle class. Some people - Amway proponents for one - seem to think that is the way to go. I say that in the long run there is no safety except in a broadly functional society.
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Old 08-21-2009, 11:32 PM   #11
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I think some "cultures" are defined by economics...

At the end of the day, I think it's all intertwined somewhat.
As much as it hurts I have to agree with BVS. Although I'd say -- economies are shaped by culture.
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Old 08-21-2009, 11:40 PM   #12
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As much as it hurts I have to agree with BVS.
Well I find common ground to be comforting...


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Although I'd say -- economies are shaped by culture.
Once again, it depends on how you define "culture"...
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Old 08-23-2009, 10:48 AM   #13
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Ok, let's loosely define culture as a set of shared attitudes, values, goals and practices, and economics as (the science of) human behaviour as a relationship between ends and scarce means which have alternate uses.

Based on financeguy's class perspective, you could say a rich white person and a poor white person in the western world are far more different than a rich white person and a rich black person.

You could then extend that to comparing say, rich people across many cultures of the world and wonder if they then actually have more in common with each other than the less fortunate in their own geographies or 'cultures'. Likewise for middle class and underclass across cultures.

I tend to agree with digitize that culture evolves from attitudes towards money and property (scarce resources) rather than INDY's assertion that culture shapes economies. They are certainly mutually reinforcing though.
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Old 08-23-2009, 11:26 AM   #14
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economics are nothing but superficial
my economic state effects me but doesn't in the slightest make me who I am
(and unless bankruptcy would force me to live under a bridge it never will)
my cultural background has formed me far more
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