Couple Welcomes 17th Child, Wants More

[anitram]

It's on TLC...but I don't think it's a regular show, just a bunch of specials?

 

[Irvine511]

 

[martha]

^

 

[anitram]

The more I read about them, the more disturbed I become.

For example, all the babies are weaned off at 6 months of age and passed off to a "buddy" - an older sibling (read: girl) to take care of them so that the Mom can start on the next one. The girls sew all the clothes, and do all the laundry. Each child has a "jurisdiction" - ie is responsible for all the laundry, or all the dishes, or all the snacks, etc. The kids live in 2 dormitories, so there is no privacy and so that the older ones can take care of the babies when they cry at night.

 

[corianderstem]

Doesn't sound like much of a childhood.

 

[martha]

Sounds like training.

 

[UberBeaver]

That's a lot of placenta to be eating.

 

[Golightly Grrl]

They also don't pay property or local taxes, having designated their basement a "church."

So basically they're getting more out of the system than they are putting into it? Damn, and if I fell on hard times I'd have difficulty getting any help from the government because I don't have kids.

 

[Golightly Grrl]

The more I read about them, the more disturbed I become.

For example, all the babies are weaned off at 6 months of age and passed off to a "buddy" - an older sibling (read: girl) to take care of them so that the Mom can start on the next one. The girls sew all the clothes, and do all the laundry. Each child has a "jurisdiction" - ie is responsible for all the laundry, or all the dishes, or all the snacks, etc. The kids live in 2 dormitories, so there is no privacy and so that the older ones can take care of the babies when they cry at night.

Animtram, thanks for sharing this. I'm all for kids having chores, but this is way too much. They need time for themselves. Mrs. Duggar is so selfish for pushing her choice to have so many kids on her children. And I hate some of the hero worship Mrs. Duggar gets. She is not a hero. She is a broodmare.

 

[martha]

Isn't she only 40? With 17 kids? :shudder:

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20134584/

The family gets a lot of comments when others see them for the first time, but most of them boil down to a few themes, said Jim Bob.

“They always ask, ‘Don’t you know what causes this? Are you Catholic or Mormon? Are they all yours? Are you a school group?’”

The Duggars are none of the above. They are members of an evangelical Christian movement called Quiverful, which holds that children are a blessing from God and that husbands and wives should gladly accept all the children they are given.

Couples in the movement also believe that the husband is the head of the household and the wife is submissive to him, while the children are submissive to both. The girls wear long dresses or skirts and tops, while the boys wear slacks and polo shirts.

When the Duggars were married in 1984 (she was 17 and he was 19), they didn’t want children immediately, feeling they could not afford them. After four years, Michelle stopped taking birth control pills to have their first child, then went back on birth control after giving birth.

When she got pregnant anyway only to suffer a miscarriage, which they attribute to the birth control pills, the couple felt that they had taken a child’s life. They prayed for forgiveness and for as many children as God decided to give them.

Inside of a year, Michelle gave birth to the first of their two sets of twins, and she hasn’t stopped since.

Both Duggars are real estate agents, and both also host Bible-based “Financial Freedom Seminars.” They also own commercial properties. From 1999-2002, Jim Bob served in the Arkansas House of Representatives. He lost a bid for the U.S. Senate in 2002.

Fifteen-year-old Jill is responsible for preparing lunch, which is served at noon. At 1:30, all the children ages 4 and under break for naps while the older children engage in group studies using materials from the Advanced Training Institute International, an organization that produces Bible-based home instruction materials.

At 4, the children work on individual studies while Jana, 17, prepares dinner, which is served at 5. There is free time and shifts at the piano, an instrument being learned by 11 of the children, all of whom also play the violin. At 8, it’s baths followed by “Bible time with Daddy.” Bedtime is 10 p.m.

The family grocery bill is $2,000 a month. Transportation is provided by nine vehicles, including a 21-passenger bus. To get through a week requires 63 loads of laundry, six gallons of milk, 15 dozen eggs, 12 boxes of cereal and 12 rolls of toilet paper.

With so many children, there is a sign-up list in the kitchen for children who feel they need one-on-one time with a parent. But Michelle says that she actually has more one-on-one time and quality time with her children than most because she home-schools them and is with them all day.

The children chorused “no” when Lauer asked if they felt lost in such a large group.

“You’ve always got somebody to play with, you’ve always got somebody to hang out with. It’s a lot of fun,” said Joshua, the oldest. “It’s a very close-knit family.”

“I would love more,” Michelle repeated. “Each one of them is a special gift.”

 

[DrTeeth]

This is not a family, but a factory

The children chorused “no” when Lauer asked if they felt lost in such a large group.

Reminds you of something?

 

[Butterscotch]

I heard a rumor that fundamentalists were going to take over by having a bunch of kids since liberals have few or any. I'm not joking, somebody told me this. They believe by populating their numbers and raising them to be conservatives, in the next generation they will outnumber the libs by millions and be able to take every election and influence just about everything. Strength in numbers!

 

[MadelynIris]

I'm sad that this turned into an evangelical bashing thread. Hmmm...

an older sibling (read: girl) to take care of them so that the Mom can start on the next one

No, the boys serve as buddies to the boys.

 

[corianderstem]

They prayed for forgiveness and for as many children as God decided to give them.

So, uh ... be careful what you wish for.

 

[anitram]

No, the boys serve as buddies to the boys.

I thought one of the girls (Jinger?) said in a special that when the kids are very young (babies/toddlers?) it was the girls who took care of them.

 

[Butterscotch]

It's very traditional for the older siblings, especially the oldest sisters, to take over helping take care of the little brothers and sisters. They all worked together and nobody thought anything bad about it. If you look at the older familes, most of the time one of the daughters never married, because she became a surrogate extra mother to the siblings, and the caretaker of the parents in their old age.

The only reason that they would want to leave home was to start the same kind of family for themselves. Then again often several generations lived together in the same house, or on the same piece of land.People lived like this for centuries and were perfectly happy. Then after WWII it slowly virtually vanished. Some want to preserve it and carry it on. That's fine if that's what they want to do.

 

[anitram]

It's very traditional for the older siblings, especially the oldest sisters, to take over helping take care of the little brothers and sisters. They all worked together and nobody thought anything bad about it. If you look at the older familes, most of the time one of the daughters never married, because she became a surrogate extra mother to the siblings, and the caretaker of the parents in their old age. People lived like this for centuries and nobody thought it was bad.

Yes, back when girls belonged in the kitchen and not at a university. Culture, like all things, evolves, and what was acceptable or desirable 300 years ago isn't today.

If that mother wants to have 20 kids or whatever, she should take care of them herself or pay for nannies. Not expect her oldest kids, particularly daughters to raise the babies, tend to them at night, cook lunch and dinner for everyone, clean, do the laundry, etc. That's totally absurd.

 

[Butterscotch]

Yes, back when girls belonged in the kitchen and not at a university. Culture, like all things, evolves, and what was acceptable or desirable 300 years ago isn't today.

If that mother wants to have 20 kids or whatever, she should take care of them herself or pay for nannies. Not expect her oldest kids, particularly daughters to raise the babies, tend to them at night, cook lunch and dinner for everyone, clean, do the laundry, etc. That's totally absurd.

But you're putting your own personal views and prejudices into it. If those girls don't mind, so what? If they are happy growing up to be just like their mother, so what? Not everyone wants to be a corporate lawyer you know. If they're happy, it's not wrong. If they're not happy, they'll eventually run off. It will be interesting to see what they all end up doing in the future.

 

[diamond]

But you're putting your own personal views and prejudices into it. If those girls don't mind, so what? If they are happy growing up to be just like their mother, so what? Not everyone wants to be a corporate lawyer you know. If they're happy, it's not wrong. If they're not happy, they'll eventually run off. It will be interesting to see what they all end up doing in the future.

i agree.

dbs

 

[anitram]

Sure I'm putting my personal views into it.

But I just don't honestly believe that a girl who was 12 when she was "buddied" up with a baby and given "jurisdiction" over the kitchen chose that lifestyle. How can you think that? She was handed a baby and informed that she'll be lunch girl. Fantastic if she enjoys it, but that is not a choice she made consciously as an adult.

I may have my own views, but I think you have some naive ideas about how much latitude these kids have to make decisions and leave their surrounding. When you've never been in the outside world - they've never gone to school, never played sports on an outside team, never socialized with kids outside the family - they have little awareness of this world beyond their front doors. You say if they're not happy, they'll run off. Do you have any idea just how scary that would be a child who has lived pretty much in segregation their entire life and has about zero life skills appropriate for the outside world?

 

[diamond]

I think selflessness and compassion are more easily learned in large families verses small families.

Give me the Waltons over 2 yuppies, IPODs, ninetendo and 2.3 kids.

dbs

 

[yolland]

I don't see where characterizing this as an evangelical-bashing thread is warranted; there were several posts expressing consternation at how regimented this family's schedule appears to be and whether the children get enough individual parental attention, and a few silly posts implying that women who bear many children are somehow subhuman, but none of that has anything to do with the Duggars' religious background.

I guess I'd have to see what this "buddy sytem" they use looks like in action to judge how extensive it is and whether it's excessive or not. I haven't seen any of their TV specials. My assumption was that it's simply a way of making parental delegation of some of the more commonly delegated childcare and household tasks (helping younger siblings get ready for bed or school, cooking dinner etc.) more orderly--delegating on the spot with a family that large would be impractical. Also, it suggests on their website that an (adult) family friend helps with the laundry. If they really sew all the clothes themselves, I'm not sure when they find time to do it; to judge from the pictures on their website, the kids don't in fact all dress alike most of the time--I think that's probably a portrait gimmick. The 'dormitory' thing does sounds a little weird; on the other hand, my 4 siblings and I all shared one bedroom growing up, with a divider thingie in the middle for privacy (by gender) as we got older, and that probably sounds weird to a lot of people too, but that was all the space we could afford.

I don't think highly of the gendered division of labor they apparently enforce, but then again there are tens of thousands of parents in this country raising their families that way, large or not. I do wonder to what extent their children have friends outside the family and are encouraged to pursue support and leadership roles outside the family...that's an important aspect of basic good citizenship development no matter what your 'family values' are, and if that's not happening, I agree with anitram that that's a problem. Parenting involves responsibilities to society in general, not just one's own private world.

 

[Illumination70]

Those Duggars make me sick because I recently read they don't pay taxes since they converted their house into a church.
BTW, The Duggars living situation isn't a family, it's an assembly line which is destroying the environment by filling-up landfills with all those disposable, diapers.

 

[Butterscotch]

But I just don't honestly believe that a girl who was 12 when she was "buddied" up with a baby and given "jurisdiction" over the kitchen chose that lifestyle.

They're kids. Kids have to listen to their parents. Kids all over the world have to do things they don't want to do because their parents tell them to. When they grow up they can decide for themselves. No one is being molested, there are no drugs, drive by shootings, or other problems of the 'outside world.' Like I said if they aren't happy they'll run off eventually. I think because you hate the idea of this lifestyle so much, you can't accept that someone actually likes it, prefers it, and is happy that way. It is possible, you know. The parents grew up in the 'outside world' and they chose that lifestyle voluntarily.

You also don't know that they don't hve outside interests, friends, and excursions to places where they meet other kids.

 

[Butterscotch]

I think selflessness and compassion are more easily learned in large families verses small families.

Give me the Waltons over 2 yuppies, IPODs, ninetendo and 2.3 kids.

dbs

Right you are, it's all about greed and materialism these days.

 

[anitram]

They have repeatedly stated in their specials that the kids don't go to school and don't participate in extra-curriculars outside the house.

The oldest has his own business now. This is off his website:

Over 200 years ago, our forefathers came to this land in pursuit of freedom. The nation they founded was centered on their desire to serve God & raise families; and have the freedom to do so. However, in recent years, their ideals and values have become increasingly scarce. In an effort to undermine our Christian heritage, the liberal left is doing everything they can to destroy the family values and ideals our nation was built upon. With this battle facing our nation, many have rose to the call to stand for what is right. In the past, conservatives who have chose government as their method of influence, have often had to turn to liberal controlled political consultant and service companies. To provide these candidates a requisite alternative, Strategic Political Services was founded. We strive to provide professional service and timely support; all with inherent conservatism. We will be honored if you choose us to help you stand for truth!

Great homeschooling job!

 

[Butterscotch]

...and I'm sure he'd consider your comments 'the liberal left trying to destroy his family values....

 

[U2isthebest]

"Over 200 years ago, our forefathers came to this land in pursuit of freedom. The nation they founded was centered on their desire to serve God & raise families; and have the freedom to do so. However, in recent years, their ideals and values have become increasingly scarce. In an effort to undermine our Christian heritage, the liberal left is doing everything they can to destroy the family values and ideals our nation was built upon. With this battle facing our nation, many have rose to the call to stand for what is right. In the past, conservatives who have chose government as their method of influence, have often had to turn to liberal controlled political consultant and service companies. To provide these candidates a requisite alternative, Strategic Political Services was founded. We strive to provide professional service and timely support; all with inherent conservatism. We will be honored if you choose us to help you stand for truth!"






That is absolutely terrifying. Sometimes fellow Believers just make me want to It's easy to see why people want nothing to do with the God that crap like this is projecting. I don't even know what to say anymore...

 

[diamond]

"Over 200 years ago, our forefathers came to this land in pursuit of freedom. The nation they founded was centered on their desire to serve God & raise families; and have the freedom to do so. However, in recent years, their ideals and values have become increasingly scarce. In an effort to undermine our Christian heritage, the liberal left is doing everything they can to destroy the family values and ideals our nation was built upon. With this battle facing our nation, many have rose to the call to stand for what is right. In the past, conservatives who have chose government as their method of influence, have often had to turn to liberal controlled political consultant and service companies. To provide these candidates a requisite alternative, Strategic Political Services was founded. We strive to provide professional service and timely support; all with inherent conservatism. We will be honored if you choose us to help you stand for truth!"






That is absolutely terrifying. Sometimes fellow Believers just make me want to It's easy to see why people want nothing to do with the God that crap like this is projecting. I don't even know what to say anymore...

Why's that?
I think the kids in that family are spot on regarding the founders of our country:

Consider the testimonies of their belief in God, which evidence a conviction and deliberate acknowledgment that God's hand was in the events that brought about our independence.

George Washington: "The success, which has hitherto attended our united efforts, we owe to the gracious interposition of Heaven, and to that interposition let us gratefully ascribe the praise of victory, and the blessings of peace." (To the Executive of New Hampshire, November 3, 1789, Writings 30:453.)

Alexander Hamilton: "The Sacred Rights of mankind are not to be rummaged from among old parchments or musty records. They are written . . . by the Hand of Divinity itself." (An Essay, "The Farmer Refuted," 1775.) "For my own part, I sincerely esteem it a system, which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests."

Thomas Jefferson: "The God who gave us life gave us liberty at the same time." (Rights of British America, 1774.)

John Adams: "As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation." (In God We Trust, p. 75.)

Benjamin Franklin: "The longer I live the more convincing Proofs I see of this Truth. That God Governs in the Affairs of Men!--And if a Sparrow cannot fall to the Ground without his Notice, is it probable that an Empire can rise without his Aid?--We have been assured, . . . in the Sacred Writings, that 'except the Lord build the House, they labour in vain that build it.' I firmly believe this;--and I also believe that without his concurring Aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than Builders of Babel." (Prayer during Constitutional Convention, June 28, 1787.)

James Madison: "It is impossible for the man of pious reflection not to perceive in it a finger of that Almighty hand which has been so frequently and signally extended to our relief in the critical stages of the revolution." (Federalist Papers, no. 37.)

Samuel Adams: "Revelation assures us that 'Righteousness exalteth a Nation'--Communities are dealt with in this World by the wise and just Ruler of the Universe. He rewards or punishes them according to their general Character." (Letter to John Scollary, 1776.)

Charles Pinckney: "When the great work was done and published, I was . . . struck with amazement. Nothing less than that superintending hand of Providence, that so miraculously carried us through the war, . . . could have brought it about so complete, upon the whole." (P. L. Ford, ed., Essays on the Constitution,, 1892, p. 412.)

It was not just incidental, nor was it mere political platitude, that the name of God was mentioned in the Declaration of Independence four times and that our inspired national motto became "In God We Trust."

We are not to conclude from the foregoing expressions that they were Godless liberals of today.

dbs