maycocksean
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
What if I thought it was a better choice for everyone--not just me? Say in the way that I think that exercise or a healthy diet is a better choice for anyone.
Cougars vs sugar daddies
- Thread starter AliEnvy
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If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
What if I thought it was a better choice for everyone--not just me? Say in the way that I think that exercise or a healthy diet is a better choice for anyone.
corianderstem
Blue Crack Distributor
Well, when you say that, then what are you saying about people who disagree with you? "My way is better, your way is wrong?"
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
let me expound further.
as someone who is pro-sex, and thinks that sex is usually a good thing, and who thinks that sex can serve a variety of purposes for a variety of people, i also strongly, strongly believe that we make our own rules for sex and those are rules that we must be able to live with. so, if one's religion were the sole reason why one would avoid sex before marriage -- assuming, of course, that marriage is an option for you -- and this eats you up at night, and you hold on and hold on and then you do get married and it's a massive disappointment, or you're with the wrong person, well, then i'd argue that you really should have been having sex before you were married.
however, if one has strong convictions as has been alluded to here that are influenced by, but not solely dictated by, one's moral upbringing and arrives at the conclusion that they shouldn't have sex before marriage for rationally thought out reasons x, y, and z, then i'm all for that. and that's a pro-sex stance, because the definition of actually being pro-sex is that you believe that sex is a good thing in life, that sex is something that people should enjoy and that will bring you joy, but only YOU know best how it can function in your life as a good thing and only YOU know how you will enjoy it and how it will bring you joy. one can be pro-sex and yet believe in abstinence.
i did beg an answer from nathan because i felt like he was being coy, almost as if he was trying to talk to the kids in their own language and construct a pro-abstinence message out of a position of assumed sexual experience, but which to me rang fairly phony because it assumed that one -- or, really, women (who need our protection) -- is always and only driven to fuck by the worst of motivations, and be left with the worst of consequences. i just don't think that human beings are that simple, and i don't believe that women who are out to have a quick fuck one night are driven to do so out of some twisted notion of feminism and then walk home trying to feel empowered but their essential virtuous womanhood conscience keeps telling them that they really wanted that man to love them and they're looking for something that they won't ever find and what they did was wrong. nor do i think that most men thump their chests after a one-night stand, trying to push aware their essential virtuous manhood conscious that keeps telling them to "do right by your woman."
some of this thread -- like some of the sex addiction thread -- felt analogous to intelligent design, whereby a specific set of moral values takes extreme examples and represents them as typical experiences in order to justify and thusly "prove" said moral values (i.e., "studies show that the best place for a child is with a mother and a father"). does that make sense?
and i'll also admit to being a bit leery of this stuff here based upon a show i recently filmed where it very, very much felt like clinical psychology had been perverted to fit a specific agenda, and fairly natural behaviors and impulses were quickly and forcefully pathologized because they didn't adhere to this unspoken but understood belief system and this was presented using (deceptively) clinical language and the patient was taught to suppress and control his behavior rather than try to understand what was driving him to do things in the first place.
maycocksean
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
Well, no. I think that is far too harsh a distinction. It's more like there are costs and benefits to the choice I made (and believe in. . .there's the rub. It's not just a choice I happened to make, its one that I also believe in), and IMVHO, the benefits outweigh what I lose out on (and I do feel that I've "missed out" on some things). Course being married now, I think most all of you would I suggest I stick with my choice!
This is where things get sticky. It's very difficult anymore to say "I think you are mistaken, or God forbid, wrong" without it being considered an offense. I don't have an issue with anyone thinking that I'm mistaken or wrong. Most of us believe our views are right and that those who disagree with us are wrong but we don't want to cop to it. I think as long as we all remain aware that we might indeed be wrong there's nothing wrong with saying I think you're wrong.
Hmmm. . .did that make any sense?
corianderstem
Blue Crack Distributor
Agreed!
I agree with that as well for the most part, although part of the stickiness for me in this thread is that I'm more speaking/thinking in generalities about women's sexuality and that role in society in general, not necessarily talking about my personal choices when it comes to sex.
So if someone's saying "I don't think it's right for women to think about sex this way," I'm not taking personal offense and getting all knee-jerky defensive, it reads more to me like "women should keep behaving in the traditional way when it comes to sex." Which, of course, is taking what you said to an extreme assumption, but that's more where I'm coming from in this thread, and kind of come back to what I was trying to say on the last page.
.... does THAT make sense? Because if it does, then thank you very much for helping me say what I was trying to say!
maycocksean
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
I like to think I'm pro-sex.
I see what you're getting at though. I felt too that Nathan was being coy--but I'm not convinced that he's subscribing to the views you suggested though, but I can't speak for him. I can say for myself that what you described with womanhood conscience and chest thumping does NOT reflect what I believe at all.
My views really aren't tied to these kinds of traditional gender role stereotypes. I really don't have a big horrific response to a woman (or a man) who wants to have a quick fuck. I get it. I've wanted to do the same thing from time to time--I think we all have, and lot of people do go with that feeling. I just happen to believe that following through on that desire isn't in a person's best interests. Still, I'm not saying it's the end of the world if they do or anything--at least if they are not married.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
or ... or ... saying, "all women who do think/act that way about sex are doing so because of the following warped motivations ..." the assumption that women only act contrary to their assumed gender roles because of some warped understanding of feminism.
because that's what i was getting.
corianderstem
Blue Crack Distributor
Yeah, that too, I can see what you mean.
maycocksean
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
Agreed!
I agree with that as well for the most part, although part of the stickiness for me in this thread is that I'm more speaking/thinking in generalities about women's sexuality and that role in society in general, not necessarily talking about my personal choices when it comes to sex.
So if someone's saying "I don't think it's right for women to think about sex this way," I'm not taking personal offense and getting all knee-jerky defensive, it reads more to me like "women should keep behaving in the traditional way when it comes to sex." Which, of course, is taking what you said to an extreme assumption, but that's more where I'm coming from in this thread, and kind of come back to what I was trying to say on the last page.
.... does THAT make sense? Because if it does, then thank you very much for helping me say what I was trying to say!
Yes, I think so. I think.
To be fair, I actually agree that a lot of the traditional views about sexuality really are about the control of women, and I do disagree strongly with that viewpoint. I might get crazy and even call it "wrong." I don't think men (or other women) have any business telling women how they "should think about sex."
Of course I seem to have no probem holding gender-neutral opinions about what both genders should be doing in regards to sex, so that probably makes me a hypocrite. . .
corianderstem
Blue Crack Distributor
Nah.
maycocksean
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
or ... or ... saying, "all women who do think/act that way about sex are doing so because of the following warped motivations ..." the assumption that women only act contrary to their assumed gender roles because of some warped understanding of feminism.
because that's what i was getting.
On this issue I think we're in agreement.
maycocksean
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
corianderstem
Blue Crack Distributor
Not that I've seen yet. But I've got my eye on you!
maycocksean
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
Not that I've seen yet. But I've got my eye on you!
I'm out for the evening everyone. Good to be back!
Good to have you back, Sean.
mad1
ONE love, blood, life
and then they put a movie out called Cougar Town............
what
the
FUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!
any movies out there called Sugar Daddy?
what
the
FUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!
any movies out there called Sugar Daddy?
OP
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AliEnvy
Refugee
I was hoping a discussion on the merits of healthy sexuality, monogamy and true love (without religious or political bickering) in the face of the arguably broken institution of marriage (at a societal level) would unfold in the lesbian-bisexual-sex addiction thread but I guess we needed Sean.
So the cougar thread it is lol.
At a 35,000ft view, taking shame out of women's sexuality and allowing them more freedom to explore (not to be confused with "having sex like a man" or performance masks) and fostering more emotional connection and expressiveness in men as manly, I think we could see divorce rates go down dramatically.
So the cougar thread it is lol.
At a 35,000ft view, taking shame out of women's sexuality and allowing them more freedom to explore (not to be confused with "having sex like a man" or performance masks) and fostering more emotional connection and expressiveness in men as manly, I think we could see divorce rates go down dramatically.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
what's interesting, and i don't have the time to cite it because i'm rushing to get on an airplane soon, is that for people who got married in the 80s and 90s and who are college educated, the divorce rate is really quite low, far lower than the 50% (in the US) that's often cited and pointed to as proof that the sexual revolution was bad for families and children. it seems that couples who are educated, who wait until they are older than 25 to get married, which likely makes them more likely to have had prior sexual experience, and who wait to have children, tend to have much more successful marriages.
mad1
ONE love, blood, life
isnt it true that if most guys dont get any physical from a new partner within like 5 dates, they fuck off to find someone who does?
OP
OP
AliEnvy
Refugee
Correction...getting all these sex threads confused haha...the nanny thread where I said this and killed the thread:
OP
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AliEnvy
Refugee
Didn't know that. Would be curious to see the numbers. FWIW, I got married in the 90s. The divorce figure at that time was 50%ish and a number of friends got married the same year so I've always had in my mind that 50% of us wouldn't make it. To date, out of the 6, only one of the couples has divorced and they were the only ones not college-educated.
nathan1977
Rock n' Roll Doggie
For the first time in the history of FYM, I may in fact be closer to your perspective than you think.
These assumptions are exactly why I wasn't interested in answering your question. I'm fairly close both to coriander and Sean's expressed opinion on what healthy expressions of sexuality are, and the statistics on STDs, divorce, affairs, etc. should be enough to warn anyone about the consequences of irresponsible sexual activity, regardless of whether or not you subscribe to a religious persuasion. (And the sheer vastness of the numbers should be enough to tell us that when it comes to sex, humans aren't the most responsible of creatures.)
I'm actually reminded of a Bono quote from 1993: "You know, if Freud was even half-right, if sex is even close to the center of our lives, how is it that we leave it to pornographers and dum-dum guys?" It strikes me that in a post-"American Pie"/"Sex and the City"/"Maxim"/"Girls Gone Wild" era, we're still confused about how to deal with/talk about/reflect on/express sex and sexuality. So much of what we think about sex has been reduced to the adolescent level of boob jobs and hook-ups. I mentioned the conflation of sex and love earlier, because I think as a culture we have a hard time distinguishing between the two. (It's like a friend who went into a pitch meeting recently and was told by an executive that the romantic leads needed to sleep together to show the audience they loved each other, "because audiences won't get it unless there's flesh on flesh.") The ancient Greeks understood that love takes many forms, which is why eros, agape, and phileo were different expressions of love. There's a danger in confusing them, and I think that's where we are today. That may even be why (it seems like) we missed the quote in the article that the (stated) goal of CougarLife is to give women a second chance at love. It's no surprise, given the hyper-sexualized world in which we find ourselves, but at the end of the day, sex is still just sex. No more, no less...
financeguy
ONE love, blood, life
Yes I remember that Bono quote, I think he was also asked about whether he had any sympathy for Madonna (who was at that point getting a hard time over the Sex book) and he said he did.
That said, I am sceptical of the idea that media representations of sexuality make a lot of difference one way or the other, except for the very naive and impressionable.
maycocksean
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
I don't have any hard data but, I, like AliEnvy, do have ancecdotal evidence that seems to support that. I've noticed of late that the overwhelming majority of my classmates from high school are still married. It kind of surprised. I don't know if the other shoe is supposed to drop later or what, but so far, so good.
My sister and I used to discuss this a lot when she was single, and she would tell you this is absolutely true. She found it very frustrating and it's one of the reasons she decided to dispense with the "wait-till-marriage" idea.
I actually wrote an (unpublished) novel that has ideas about monogamy and sexual temptation as one of it's major themes. I've been thinking about posting it in bits and pieces over at the creativing writing forum here on Interference but I'm not sure whether I want to do that or not (I've never even been in that forum).
financeguy
ONE love, blood, life
Generally? Probably yes.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
you'll note that i knew i was making an assumption, which is why i asked for an explanation.
so fear should guide us?
(it did me)
so, again, what is irresponsible? because the above seems to echo (to bring up one example) the often cited statistic that condoms have only an 80% success rate (which is false). often, "facts" about the potential dangers of sex are wildly inflated by people with abstinence-only agendas.
American culture is notoriously adolescent about sex, i agree, owing much to our Puritan roots and our hyper-capitalistic sell-sell-sell ethos.
for many teenagers, the choice seems to be Purity Rings vs. Internet Porn.
but are we that confused? are things really that bad? do we underestimate kids, and perhaps each other? are we wringing hands over, say, one sensationalistic story about a BJ on a school bus when the reality is that teen pregnancy continues to decline (after a weird uptick last year, i think)? when the divorce rate has continued to drop? when HIV infections have held steady for years?
and all -- pretty much ALL -- of the negative consequences of sex can be eradicated with knowledge. i know people who have had literally hundreds of partners but have never contracted an STD. i know someone who has slept with two people and contracted an STD the second time. what was the difference? protection. so it's really not so much what you do than it is how you do it.
i think empowerment via knowledge is always the best thing, and i think that's something we are all agreeing on here.
there's a fascinating article that i read on the plane today in this month's Atlantic that i'll quote from later once i've had some dinner.
i find this paragraph utterly confusing.
Cin
Blue Crack Addict
So this is very rude of me not to have read the whole thread but..
I am kinda seeing a guy who is ten years younger than me. I've been called a cougar many times. If it's said in a light hearted way then fine. When it's implied that I'm a man eater who only bangs young guys for their looks?
The reality of our relationship is that he has eons of life experience on me. I've been fairly sheltered, he's lived his life to the full. He analysis situations, I jump right in. When I want advice he's always got it covered. He is the mature one here and I'm the silly gal in a lot of ways but it works.
If we were the same age it just wouldn't work.
I am kinda seeing a guy who is ten years younger than me. I've been called a cougar many times. If it's said in a light hearted way then fine. When it's implied that I'm a man eater who only bangs young guys for their looks?
The reality of our relationship is that he has eons of life experience on me. I've been fairly sheltered, he's lived his life to the full. He analysis situations, I jump right in. When I want advice he's always got it covered. He is the mature one here and I'm the silly gal in a lot of ways but it works.
If we were the same age it just wouldn't work.
OP
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AliEnvy
Refugee
^ Your name is Cin with a capital C...C! 
(sorry, couldn't help myself lol)
(sorry, couldn't help myself lol)
OP
OP
AliEnvy
Refugee
I agree that knowledge is empowerment and that empowerment generally leads to better outcomes than fear-driven decisions.
But I also think that in terms of healthy sexuality, knowledge goes above and beyond making good choices on STD/pregnancy protection.
As you said, if it appears that teens are faced with purity rings or net porn...how can they determine when sex is just sex and when it forms part of an intimate relationship? How do they determine healthy boundaries?
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