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Old 06-08-2010, 10:22 AM   #181
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I don't know; I've yet to meet someone who's suffered negative consequences from sex in a committed, loving relationship.

well, for the sake of argument, that was Samantha's entire plotline with Smith in the SATC movie. she dropped super-hot Smith because being in a relationship was making her miserable.

but, agreed, these are fictional characters, and Samantha is certainly an extreme (but she's still my favorite character -- she's the only one who actually seems happy and i'd much rather have lunch with her than the others ... and though i've only seen the first "Twilight" movie, Bella seems morose, joyless, and boring, but then, she's into vampires, so i guess that makes sense).



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But it seems like telling a woman that the way "liberated women" enjoy sex is to enjoy it like a man is somewhat missing the point.

maybe some women enjoy casual sex? does that necessarily make it "like a man"? i guess what i'm getting in your formulations about "liberated women" is that the implication is that they are making choices that are somehow inauthentic to what they really want.

is that what you mean to say?
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Old 06-08-2010, 10:29 AM   #182
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Yes I would certainly hope that is not the only way that men can enjoy sex. Sure seems to me that is a stereotype about how men are supposed to behave.
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Old 06-08-2010, 12:21 PM   #183
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the bigger issue i'm having is the continued notion of women constantly being "pressured" into this or that. when we're talking about teenagers, yes, absolutely.

but adult women?

can adult women speak to this?
The article you posted said the age group for highest domestic violence and sexual assault goes up to age 24.

A friend of mine recently left a long term dysfunctional and emotionally abusive relationship. Among some of the things she was pressured into that she didn't want were threesomes and posting their own sex videos to amateur porn sites.

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i guess what i'm getting in your formulations about "liberated women" is that the implication is that they are making choices that are somehow inauthentic to what they really want.
Many women trade sex for all kinds of things, don't they?

When another friend of mine really just wants a girls night out, her 'pass' for the night is a blowjob for her hubby before she leaves the house. She's perfectly fine with that quid pro quo and it came up in discussion amongst a few married friends who began joking about what they 'get' for giving sex. I was gobsmacked. In part because I felt really naive, 1) they made it sound like this is commonplace in marriage and had other stories of so and so, etc. 2) it had never even occured to me to use sex in my relationship that way. Still doesn't. Seems so, demeaning. Sex for service, not necessarily for pleasure among equals.

So it's consensual for them, works for their relationships, but I can't help but think it's not quite healthy.

I should add that these are women I generally consider modern and liberated.
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Old 06-08-2010, 01:00 PM   #184
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The article you posted said the age group for highest domestic violence and sexual assault goes up to age 24.

A friend of mine recently left a long term dysfunctional and emotionally abusive relationship. Among some of the things she was pressured into that she didn't want were threesomes and posting their own sex videos to amateur porn sites.
not sure what the first has to do with the second, but once people are over 18, aren't they entirely responsible for their own actions? we're not talking about rape, we're talking about feeling "pressured" -- if your friend doesn't want to engage in threesomes, why not just say so? how is this any different than, "i didn't want to snort cocaine, but i felt pressured to do so?"
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Old 06-08-2010, 01:12 PM   #185
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There have been some interesting commentaries about that (pressured/coerced) in regards to the Kendra (don't know her last name - the one from The Girls Next Door) sex tape, in which she clearly expresses her discomfort with the whole idea of her boyfriend filming their sex, and he's more than a bit of a dick about it, and she caves.

(Note: I haven't watched the tape, that's just based on the commentaries and discussions I've read about it.)

Why? Because she wants to please him. Maybe she's scared of him, who knows? A lot of women feel like if they don't give their boyfriends what they want sexually, they'll lose their boyfriend.

There's probabaly an equal feeling of "women must please their men or else" sentiment on both sides of the equation in those situations. Dysfunction and emotional abuse factor into that.
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Old 06-08-2010, 01:14 PM   #186
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not sure what the first has to do with the second, but once people are over 18, aren't they entirely responsible for their own actions? we're not talking about rape, we're talking about feeling "pressured" -- if your friend doesn't want to engage in threesomes, why not just say so? how is this any different than, "i didn't want to snort cocaine, but i felt pressured to do so?"
Pressure or no pressure, everyone is responsible for the choices they make regardless of the influencing factors.

Why not just say no? She thought she was in love and didn't want to be alone. Many people of both genders make bad choices for those reasons.
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Old 06-08-2010, 03:42 PM   #187
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already Ive read about a guy dating a girl for 5 months and only having s** 10 times, and he's complainin..........about that...............
That's not really a lot in 5 months is it.
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Old 06-08-2010, 03:51 PM   #188
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If one person wants more sex than the other person in the relationship, then maybe it's just another issue of compatability. If sex is that important to one and not the other, that may be a deal-breaker for some people.
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Old 06-08-2010, 04:01 PM   #189
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(though i've only seen the first "Twilight" movie, Bella seems morose, joyless, and boring, but then, she's into vampires, so i guess that makes sense).
LOL. I guess you have to dance with the one who brought you...

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i guess what i'm getting in your formulations about "liberated women" is that the implication is that they are making choices that are somehow inauthentic to what they really want.

is that what you mean to say?
Not really; I don't think any man is qualified to say what women want. But as MrsSpringsteen pointed out, "having sex like a man" merely plays into notions and stereotypes of male sexuality, as opposed to being an exploration and declaration of female sexuality. I have no doubt that some women enjoy casual sex the way that some men do -- but to declare that casual sex is the way that all, or even most, men have sex seems to do a disservice to both sides of the gender equation.

Bringing up "SATC" is interesting, since as Lindy West referred to it in her hilarious review, it's gay men playing with Barbie dolls. If that's true (I don't know enough about the writer's room to say whether it is), it would again raise the question of the accuracy of a portrait of liberated women painted by men.

By contrast, in terms of authenticity, I remember how shocking Meg Ryan's diner orgasm scene was in "When Harry Met Sally..." -- all the more shocking because a woman (Nora Ephron) wrote it. What seemed to make women laugh was less Meg's ability to simulate orgasm, and more the whole scene before about Billy Crystal's cluelessness when it came to whether or not women faked it. Which I'm pretty sure had never been talked about on screen before.

PS. Whether one agrees with Lindy's assessment or not, her review of the film is here, and it's pretty funny.
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/b...nt?oid=4132715
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Old 06-08-2010, 04:20 PM   #190
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When another friend of mine really just wants a girls night out, her 'pass' for the night is a blowjob for her hubby before she leaves the house. She's perfectly fine with that quid pro quo and it came up in discussion amongst a few married friends who began joking about what they 'get' for giving sex. I was gobsmacked. In part because I felt really naive, 1) they made it sound like this is commonplace in marriage and had other stories of so and so, etc. 2) it had never even occured to me to use sex in my relationship that way. Still doesn't. Seems so, demeaning. Sex for service, not necessarily for pleasure among equals.
Not to pry but since you posted about it Do you mean that is what she does in order to be able to go out? Seriously? Or do you mean pass as in she can do what she wants during her girls night-not sex with other guys, not anything like that Yes, I think that's demeaning too. Definitely not my kind of marriage or relationship. You might as well be a thirteen year old doing that on a school bus-somehow a mature married couple doing it for that reason seems much worse Sorry, I don't mean to judge or slag off on your friend, but wow.
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Old 06-08-2010, 04:22 PM   #191
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That's some funny shit.
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Old 06-08-2010, 04:25 PM   #192
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i agree, it is a funny review.

i'm not sure where any of this leaves us in regards to the original topic, which i can't even remember at this point.

i suppose it comes down to the idea of casual sex, and whether or not this is a male thing, or just a people thing. whether or not it's a "good" thing seems to lie largely in the eyes of the individual, and we need to trust women (and men) to be able to determine for themselves what it is they want and how to go about getting it. i think we can point to evidence that shows that married people tend to be happier, and successful marriages tend to be defined by fidelity, but there are notable exceptions to these rules and these rules don't apply to everyone. so the same logic appears to follow for casual sex. perhaps it's like ice cream? enjoy it, but not too much. know when to say when.

i think the more interesting aspect of this discussion is just how liberated women are (or can be) from male perceptions of their sexuality, and how much this informs their performance. these things are endlessly contested, and in constant negotiation, but i have to say that i think it's a good thing that we offer more options than just Virgin vs. Whore. reminds me of a Mad Men episode where they did an ad campaign asking if women were a "Jackie Kennedy" or a "Marilyn Monroe." again, Virgin v Whore.

and i don't know where to take this any further. except that i will say that when it comes to teenagers, all the news about sexuality is very good (if we can agree that teenagers should be cautious about sex):

NSFG - Whats New

some highlights:

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n 2006-2008, the proportion of never-married females aged 15-19 who had ever had
sexual intercourse was 42%. This was not a statistically significant change from 2002
when 46% of never-married teenaged females had ever had sexual intercourse. (Table 1
and Figure 1). The percent sexually experienced has, however, declined steadily since
1988, when it was 51%. (This was a statistically significant decline).

• In 2006-2008, the percent of never-married males aged 15-19 who ever had sexual
intercourse, 43%, did not change significantly from 2002. This follows a significant
decline among males from 1995 (55%) to 2002 (46%). (Table 2 and Figure 1)

• Both female and male teenagers whose mothers had their first birth as a teen, and those
who did not live with both parents at age 14, were more likely to be sexually experienced
than those whose mothers had their first birth at age 20 or older, and those who lived with
both parents at age 14 (Table 1 and 2).

• The vast majority of never-married teenagers had not had intercourse in the month before
the interview (76% of females and 79% of males, unchanged from 2002), but 12% of
female and 10% of male teens had had sex 4 or more times in the month before the
interview. (Table 5 and Figure 3)

• Teenagers’ most common first sexual partners are someone with whom they are “going
steady” (72% of females and 56% of males) as opposed to someone in a less-involved
relationship (e.g., going out once in a while). The second most common relationship with
the first sexual partner is having just met, and this is more common for males than
females (25% males and 14% females) (Table 8 and Figure 5).

• Regarding total number of lifetime partners, 26% of females and 29% of males had had 2
or more partners. Teenaged females who were younger at first sex were much more likely
to have had higher numbers of total partners (Tables 11 and Figure 7). No changes
occurred in number of partners since 2002, for males and females.

• The condom is the most commonly used method among sexually experienced teen
females: 95% had used the condom at least once. The second most common method was
withdrawal, with 58% having ever used this method, followed by the pill, at 55%. Use of
periodic abstinence, or the calendar rhythm method, has increased since 2002 – in 2006-
2008 17% of teens had ever used this method (Table 13 and Figure 8).

• Among never-married sexually experienced female teens, 79% used a contraceptive
method at first intercourse, 68% used the condom, and 15% used the pill. There were no
significant changes since 2002 in contraceptive use at first intercourse for female teens
(Figure 9). Among never-married males, a significantly higher percent used the condom
(81%) compared to 2002 (71%), but overall use of any method at first intercourse did not
change significantly (Table 14).

so despite greater representations of sexuality in the media, and the expansion of female role models beyond Jackie vs. Marilyn, it seems that the kids are making generally good decisions.

i had no idea we were such sluts in the mid-1990s.
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Old 06-08-2010, 04:37 PM   #193
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PS. Whether one agrees with Lindy's assessment or not, her review of the film is here, and it's pretty funny.
Burkas and Birkins by Lindy West - Film - The Stranger, Seattle's Only Newspaper
Hilarious...still giggling...

I had heard on the radio about a funny review that referred to death by stiletto that cost more than a car, but had no idea the whole thing was even more entertaining. That's probably funnier than the movie itself.

A sidenote on SATC and media influence...at my brother's recent wedding, during the toast to the bride, the MC (her good friend) quoted her "hero"...Carrie Bradshaw.
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Old 06-08-2010, 04:45 PM   #194
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I hate that anyone would think that SATC accurately represents any one woman, let alone all. It's fantasy and entertainment (Well the tv show was. The movies, not so much).

Yes it's totally realistic that any woman would sit in her glass walled office with her panties down and, um, take care of that area. It's the fast track to career advancement.
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Old 06-08-2010, 04:57 PM   #195
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i'm not sure where any of this leaves us in regards to the original topic, which i can't even remember at this point.
The shaming of women's sexuality (objectionable cougar ad).

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Not to pry but since you posted about it Do you mean that is what she does in order to be able to go out? Seriously? Or do you mean pass as in she can do what she wants during her girls night-not sex with other guys, not anything like that Yes, I think that's demeaning too. Definitely not my kind of marriage or relationship. You might as well be a thirteen year old doing that on a school bus-somehow a mature married couple doing it for that reason seems much worse Sorry, I don't mean to judge or slag off on your friend, but wow.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that's a raw deal.
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