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Old 12-01-2011, 09:36 AM   #16
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Being pedantic about the term of socialism (when there are so many versions) is a distraction from the topic.
No, it doesn't it shows that one knows what they are talking about...



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If the U.S. imitates Europe they'll be like Europe.
Really? Is it that simple? You do realize this isn't apple to apples, right?
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Old 12-01-2011, 09:59 AM   #17
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What I'm talking about is how Europe has more social programs and trade barriers than the U.S. The GDP in the hands of all levels of government is larger. If the U.S. goes on the path of higher taxes, barriers and more regulation they will be imitating Europe and the consequences will be the same. Slower growth, shrinking middle class, weaker military. More and more middle class workers will be government workers, not private sector workers. Considering government is not as productive as the private sector that will not be good for the standard of living. Obviously many countries in Europe are more socialist than the U.S. and they also rely on the U.S.'s military spending so they can spend more on programs and wag their finger at the U.S.

Being pedantic about the term of socialism (when there are so many versions) is a distraction from the topic. If you want to define socialism in one category you'll be too general. If the U.S. imitates Europe they'll be like Europe. What's so hard to understand?

that it's not 1985 anymore? and that in the US austerity has to be combined with increased revenues which means returning to the tax rates of the 1990s (shock, horror). it was the Bush tax cuts that got us into this mess.

if the past 10 years have shown us anything it's that lower taxes don't create jobs, and in fact they destroy the middle class.
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Old 12-01-2011, 08:02 PM   #18
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Guys, if we could just eliminate all the progressives and hippies and dropouts and deviants and freaks and jacobins and islamofascists, sikhs, communists, feminazis, moderate conservatives, lawyers, community organisers, moderate conservatives, socialist pinkos and moderate conservatives... then truly heaven on earth would have been realised.
That's just what an Islamofascist would say!!!!
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Old 12-01-2011, 08:13 PM   #19
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Not really, there is only one 'socialism', that being with the workers controlling the means of production. I think what you're trying to get at is the welfare state.

All clear?
That's communism. Democratic socialists don't want to control the means of production (or feel they can't get away with it - healthcare, energy). They want to control capital via taxation and regulation. Control of capital is control of capital.
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Old 12-01-2011, 08:15 PM   #20
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that it's not 1985 anymore? and that in the US austerity has to be combined with increased revenues which means returning to the tax rates of the 1990s (shock, horror). it was the Bush tax cuts that got us into this mess.

if the past 10 years have shown us anything it's that lower taxes don't create jobs, and in fact they destroy the middle class.
No keeping the taxes low and CONTROLLING SPENDING is what will increase growth. The left just wants the spending to increase precisely because they want higher taxes and with higher taxes there is no guarantee that the money will mostly go towards debt repayment.
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Old 12-01-2011, 08:21 PM   #21
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No, it doesn't it shows that one knows what they are talking about...
I know exactly what I'm talking about. Socialists don't just support ownership of the means of production (hello 20th century!) they also support control of capital via regulation and social programs via taxation. We already have lots of social programs and the left wants what? More! If not then they would be neo-conservatives. They want at least 60% of the GDP in the hands of government. Conservatives want a lot less. European socialism is a particular type and that was what I'm referring to. Lots of Democrats would love European socialism. We can use the term liberalism if you like but to me that's just a hijacked term.

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Really? Is it that simple? You do realize this isn't apple to apples, right?
If your country has similar institutions then it's similar.
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Old 12-01-2011, 08:28 PM   #22
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That's communism. Democratic socialists don't want to control the means of production (or feel they can't get away with it - healthcare, energy). They want to control capital via taxation and regulation. Control of capital is control of capital.
Communism is a stateless, classless and moneyless society, and the final goal in which socialism is the transitional phase. Also, I believe you're confusing democratic socialism with social democracy.
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Old 12-01-2011, 09:47 PM   #23
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No keeping the taxes low and CONTROLLING SPENDING is what will increase growth. The left just wants the spending to increase precisely because they want higher taxes and with higher taxes there is no guarantee that the money will mostly go towards debt repayment.


the left wants higher taxes because they want people to have things like health care and schools and roads and functioning police, fire department, and hospitals, as well as education and early childhood programs.

the right wants to keep taxes low so that rich people will have more money.

also, the "high taxes = less growth" is precisely what i was talking about: a 1985 mentality. taxes were higher in the 1990s. anybody would trade today for back then.
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Old 12-02-2011, 02:35 AM   #24
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In a more sober vein, I would observe that the quoted author in the opening post, and frankly, not a few regulars on this forum, are a sick, sad parody of a once-respectable ideological perspective.

Nothing but a creepy anti-tax cult. Frankly, an embarrassment. No debate is possible. No good faith is offered, and therefore none should be expected.

As expressed in the contemporary elected membership of the GOP, and to a lesser extent, my own country's 'centre-right' coalition opposition, this worldview is borderline treason. It actively seeks the collapse of existing politics, and economy, on some spurious notion of... I don't know what. That the blame will fall on the incumbents? That the system will be further discredited? Aren't revolutions fun! PRESS PLAY!
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Old 12-02-2011, 07:19 AM   #25
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I know exactly what I'm talking about.
No, you're using a hijacked term, one created by the far right of American radio. If you tried to use that term to someone who actually grew up in a true socialistic country they'd slap you on the back of the head.
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If your country has similar institutions then it's similar.
You don't find this simpleton at all? Looking through the context of world history you think it's ok to compare a CONTINENT of several old individual countries to a young and still fairly powerful COUNTRY? I don't know very many true thinking persons that would make such careless comparisons, do you?
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Old 12-02-2011, 08:50 AM   #26
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Also, I believe you're confusing democratic socialism with social democracy.
Ding ding ding.
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Old 12-02-2011, 09:25 AM   #27
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Communism is a stateless, classless and moneyless society, and the final goal in which socialism is the transitional phase. Also, I believe you're confusing democratic socialism with social democracy.
You're just derailing the thread with being pedantic. If the left wants to control all of healthcare and run the energy sector (which is what they want to do) then trying to split differences between democratic socialism and social democracy is what the left does best. Hijack terms because to debate climate change and a single payer healthcare system is too much work. There are many socialists and communists who work together much like there are many neo-conservatives and libertarians who work together because they all have some common bonds

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No, you're using a hijacked term, one created by the far right of American radio. If you tried to use that term to someone who actually grew up in a true socialistic country they'd slap you on the back of the head.
You mean the ones moving to the United States? I've talked to all kinds of socialists. In fact I met (again more teachers) on a hike last summer and they were super political in the car pool towards the trailhead. One was a older retired teacher German socialist who was MASSIVELY brainwashed who talked nothing but 'socialism' (her term). She used the term interchangably they way I do. The entire drive was hilarious. I'll detail later when I get back from work. It ended up being fun but unfortunately when I started the hike a green party politician who lost the election then started to debate me. That nice hike was ruined. What a lunatic!

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the left wants higher taxes because they want people to have things like health care and schools and roads and functioning police, fire department, and hospitals, as well as education and early childhood programs.

the right wants to keep taxes low so that rich people will have more money.

also, the "high taxes = less growth" is precisely what i was talking about: a 1985 mentality. taxes were higher in the 1990s. anybody would trade today for back then.
You're forgetting easy money policies of the 1990s, free trade, higher savings rates (during the early 1990s and lower savings rates in the later 1990s) and a lower debt load. The 1990's Seinfeld era is OVER. If debt was paid down in the 1990s instead of only balancing the budget then the debt load now wouldn't be so bad. Currently individual, corporate and state debts are huge. If anything the 1990s and 2000s led to today's predicament. We're in a hangover from the "good times".

BTW the right wants to keep taxes low so there is an incentive to work. Work is painful and incentives are needed to do it.

The problem with the left is that when programs are instituted they are supposed to work but there is always a push to add more. Government is always "underfunded" precisely because most of the money goes to salaries and the challenge is to make sure that new money doesn't simply go to inflated salaries with little to no improvement. That challenge hasn't been satisfied.
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Old 12-02-2011, 09:59 AM   #28
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You're just derailing the thread with being pedantic.
It's not being "pedantic"

If we allow for the bending and mutating of words then they lose meaning. Would I be correct in calling you a Nazi or Facist? Aren't you just being pedantic if you state 'no' to that question?

If you want to be taken seriously in debate than you have to start respecting the language, the science, and the means that we define things in life in order to do so. Otherwise you'll never be taken seriously, ever.


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If the left wants to control all of healthcare and run the energy sector (which is what they want to do) then trying to split differences between democratic socialism and social democracy is what the left does best.
So you honestly believe that what's happening in the US is "controling" healthcare? If you honestly believe that then I have a bridge I'd like to sell you, it's a really good holiday deal. You better act now.
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Old 12-02-2011, 10:33 AM   #29
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Old 12-02-2011, 12:52 PM   #30
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You're forgetting easy money policies of the 1990s, free trade, higher savings rates (during the early 1990s and lower savings rates in the later 1990s) and a lower debt load. The 1990's Seinfeld era is OVER. If debt was paid down in the 1990s instead of only balancing the budget then the debt load now wouldn't be so bad. Currently individual, corporate and state debts are huge. If anything the 1990s and 2000s led to today's predicament. We're in a hangover from the "good times".
the debt wasn't paid down BECAUSE of Bush's 2001 tax cuts. that, along with the housing market, is what bankrupted us.

again, all the GOP cares about is tax cuts on rich people not on lowering the deficit or paying down debt.



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BTW the right wants to keep taxes low so there is an incentive to work. Work is painful and incentives are needed to do it.

you're right. the unemployed need more incentive to take a bath and get a job. lower tax rates will help them do this.



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The problem with the left is that when programs are instituted they are supposed to work but there is always a push to add more. Government is always "underfunded" precisely because most of the money goes to salaries and the challenge is to make sure that new money doesn't simply go to inflated salaries with little to no improvement. That challenge hasn't been satisfied.

i'm essentially married to a federal worker. you have no idea what you're talking about.
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