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Old 04-17-2010, 11:17 PM   #46
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It is morally correct to the degree that such a sacrifice will protect the lives, well being, and way of life of the citizens of that country.
And I think it is this sort of sacrifice that is what is being honored and "celebrated" in Virginia.
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Old 04-17-2010, 11:24 PM   #47
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I think the general idea is that it is considered honorable to set aside the fears of losing your own life in order to save the lives of others (which in your example, happens to be fellow countrymen)
But, considered honorable by whom? This is a subjective judgement, surely?

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Also, if another country’s army suddenly landed on your shores and began burning buildings and killing your neighbors – I’m guessing you might want to defend your life and the lives of your family.
This is approaching a morally justifiable reason, in my view. But we both know, in the case of the US in particular, that there is little chance of this chain of events happening in actuality.
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Old 04-17-2010, 11:27 PM   #48
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It is morally correct to the degree that such a sacrifice will protect the lives, well being, and way of life of the citizens of that country.
Again, I am probably slow on the uptake.

Explain to me why it is morally correct to sacrifice one's own life and liberty for the sake of some rather vague and general concept of what you describe as the "lives, well being, and way of life of the citizens of that country"?
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Old 04-17-2010, 11:29 PM   #49
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Also, if another country’s army suddenly landed on your shores and began burning buildings and killing your neighbors – I’m guessing you might want to defend your life and the lives of your family.
Absolutely. And to be consistent, we both support the Iraqi resistance, right?
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Old 04-17-2010, 11:34 PM   #50
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I fully agree with you on this. But I think most people who enlist don't actually think about things like land or resources. They mainly just do so because they want to protect their country from attackers, be they real or imagined. Then they get into the conflict, and realize they were way in over their heads, that it's not at all what they thought it would be.

That's certainly true. That's why I find it odd that McCain ran in 2008 on his war service to the point where he was almost bragging about it, all the while pushing for more of our time in the Middle East. Generally, as I understand it. most war veterans, especially ones who've been through the kind of hell McCain went through, rarely, if ever, talk about their service, and when they do, it's never in bragging terms. I remember reading magazines like Time and Newsweek prior to our going into Iraq, and there were LOTS of letters from WW2 veterans who were heavily against the idea. They've been there. They know what it's really like. And they don't want others to go through the same nightmare.

My dad also noted once that he found it rather funny that the Republicans were acting like they were the better choice in terms of how to handle national defense, because if you look back through our recent history, a lot of our wars were actually started by Democrats.

Angela
Yep. Agreed on everything you said here. I have close family relatives that fought in WWII and they never bragged about it - they would have found it unseemly or arrogant to do so.

BTW, good to see you back posting.
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Old 04-17-2010, 11:44 PM   #51
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But, considered honorable by whom? This is a subjective judgement, surely?
I agree that it is subjective, but a point of view shared by many and is probably a necessary component for the survival of many civilizations (for good or bad).


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This is approaching a morally justifiable reason, in my view. But we both know, in the case of the US in particular, that there is little chance of this chain of events happening in actuality.
In the current day and age - this is true. However, I think this was the point of view of many Confederates (as the quote from Robert E. Lee in 1861 illustrates).
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Old 04-17-2010, 11:48 PM   #52
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Absolutely. And to be consistent, we both support the Iraqi resistance, right?
I can certainly respect and empathize with an Iraqi resistance fighter. The good thing for us (the Americans) is that we pointed the finger at the Al Qaeda invaders from Syria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia...etc as their real enemy.
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Old 04-17-2010, 11:48 PM   #53
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Yep. Agreed on everything you said here. I have close family relatives that fought in WWII and they never bragged about it - they would have found it unseemly or arrogant to do so.
Same here. I had a grandfather who served in the second World War, and an uncle who served in Vietnam (that's another thing, too, McCain made a big thing about service in a war that pretty much nobody thinks of in favorable terms to begin with, so...go figure).

It is unseemly. I can't fathom thinking fondly upon such a horrific situation. And anyone who exploits those situations for political gain is a sick jerk (see Giuliani and his constant 9/11 stuff), and anyone who votes for someone like that needs a reality check.

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BTW, good to see you back posting.
Thanks . Good to be back.

Angela
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Old 04-18-2010, 12:10 AM   #54
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Here are some more quotes on the topic of the colonization of freed blacks...
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...to be expended under the direction of the President of the United States, to aid in the colonization and settlement of such free persons of African descent now residing in said District, including those to be liberated by this act, as may desire to emigrate to the Republic of Haiti or Liberia, or such other country beyond the limits of the United States as the President may determine...

that the President is hereby authorized to make provision for the transportation, colonization and settlement in some tropical country beyond the limits of the United States, of such persons of African race, made free by the provisions of this act, as may be willing to emigrate ... Confiscation Act of July 1862
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I am gratified that the two principles of compensation, and colonization, are both recognized, and practically applied in the act - Abraham Lincoln upon signing the bill into law
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Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life. Family life may also collapse and the increase of mixed breed bastards may some day challenge the supremacy of the white man. Reverend James Mitchell 1862
Shortly after writing this, Mitchell was appointed Commissioner of Emigration by Lincoln.

There is also a good deal of literature about the "Chiriqui Plan"
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Old 04-18-2010, 12:19 AM   #55
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It is my opinion that the resettlement effort failed because the Republicans needed the black votes to control the post-war South, and not out of some noble desire to see blacks live in equality.
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Old 04-18-2010, 07:53 AM   #56
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And Mr. Vega,

The Holocaust was a failure of Christendom. At worst, church leaders and laity enthusiastically endorsed and were actively complicit in the rise of Nazism; at best, they silently acquiesced to its murderous agenda.
Oh well, that's not entirely true. The Red Chapel or the brothers Bonhoeffer and other religious people took an active role and sometimes used their powers to resist the powers, and gave their lives for it. So, at best they were actively or passively resisting.
After all, the church was just as split on the issue as was the rest of society. And no country is perfectly innocent either. Just think at how England and the US closed their borders to emigrating Jews, except they had money or knowledge, even when they knew what was dawning.
But the role of anti-semitism and hatred for Sinti and Roma within the Christian churches, hundreds of years old, certainly played a major part. And I would argue it was not very Christian-like when they embraced programs to kill all the disabled and underprivileged.
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Old 04-18-2010, 10:05 PM   #57
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After all, the church was just as split on the issue as was the rest of society...
This is also the case of slavery in antebellum America - as well as the equality of the African-American.
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Old 04-20-2010, 12:21 PM   #58
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Again, I am probably slow on the uptake.

Explain to me why it is morally correct to sacrifice one's own life and liberty for the sake of some rather vague and general concept of what you describe as the "lives, well being, and way of life of the citizens of that country"?
Again, your off topic and are obviously not going to agree with any more detailed of an explanation. My answer has not been any more general or vague than your question. I don't know if you agree with or understand the necessity of the work that police and fireman do in your community which might involve sacrifice. Thats on a local scale. On a national scale they may be needed as well as the military. On the international scale, action has proven necessary in the past by the military's of various countries to preserve the same stability, law, order that your local police and fire department attempt to do every day in your community. There are large differences in scale and the technical types of problems, but the idea is the same.

Now back to the topic of the thread!
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Old 04-20-2010, 10:37 PM   #59
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...I don't know if you agree with or understand the necessity of the work that police and fireman do in your community which might involve sacrifice. Thats on a local scale. On a national scale they may be needed as well as the military. On the international scale, action has proven necessary in the past by the military's of various countries to preserve the same stability, law, order that your local police and fire department attempt to do every day in your community. There are large differences in scale and the technical types of problems, but the idea is the same.
Nicely put
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Old 04-21-2010, 05:25 PM   #60
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Absolutely. And to be consistent, we both support the Iraqi resistance, right?
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I can certainly respect and empathize with an Iraqi resistance fighter. The good thing for us (the Americans) is that we pointed the finger at the Al Qaeda invaders from Syria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia...etc as their real enemy.
Of course, I was making a rhetorical point, as neither one of us supports the Iraqi resistance, though to be fair to you the majority of Iraq war supporters don't even seem able to make the distinction you just made, i.e., they see it thusly:

Iraq citizens who are against the invasion = bad eggs, terrorists
Iraqi citizens who are in favour of the invasion = good eggs, freedom lovers
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