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Old 06-24-2015, 06:35 PM   #16
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Old 06-24-2015, 07:17 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by iron yuppie View Post
I see your point. With these things, though, I think the meaning of such imagery is 50% historical and 50% personal interpretation. Regarding the swastika, I seem to recall a case, perhaps in the UK, where a Hindu group successfully fought against a proposed ban on it through the argument that Nazi imagery should not supercede the religious-cultural meaning the symbol had for them.
The swastika goes back thousands of years and is well documented as having holy meaning in both religious and secular literature throughout history.

Unless I missed something in a religious history class and the Stars and Bars was worshipped by a Native American tribe as a holy symbol, these two situations aren't remotely comparable.
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Old 06-24-2015, 07:29 PM   #18
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The history of the symbols doesn't matter because the nature of symbolism is to be fluid. What matters is the multiplicity of interpretations in the present. Banning or discouraging the Confederate flag does nothing to ease racism and racial tension in the south the same way that restricting the swastika in Europe has done little to nothing to obstruct Neo-Nazism and other far-right groups.
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Old 06-24-2015, 07:31 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by iron yuppie View Post
Banning or discouraging the Confederate flag does nothing to ease racism and racial tension in the south the same way that restricting the swastika in Europe has done little to nothing to obstruct Neo-Nazism and other far-right groups.
Somewhat agreed. What's interesting to note that in Germany, many supporters of far-right ideology have taken to use the Confederate flag in place of the swastika. Or so I've heard.
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Old 06-24-2015, 08:06 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by iron yuppie View Post
Banning or discouraging the Confederate flag does nothing to ease racism and racial tension in the south the same way that restricting the swastika in Europe has done little to nothing to obstruct Neo-Nazism and other far-right groups.

This isn't about ending racism. This is about ending government sponsored racism. That flag flying on the capital grounds in South Carolina sends a horrible message to the rest of the country and to the world. It represents a white supremacist regime and I'm glad it's coming down, even though it should've never been put up there during the 50s in the first place.


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Old 06-24-2015, 08:06 PM   #21
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Iyup, I feel like you're grasping at straws here to make a point. And I see what that point is, but wouldn't you agree that the standard practice is that the defeated in a war don't usually continue to fly their flags after the war's end?
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Old 06-24-2015, 08:15 PM   #22
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I don't think that, in the year 2015, flying the Confederate flag or displaying it has anything whatsoever to do with loyalty or lack thereof to the United States government.
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Old 06-24-2015, 08:32 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by iron yuppie View Post
I don't think that, in the year 2015, flying the Confederate flag or displaying it has anything whatsoever to do with loyalty or lack thereof to the United States government.

It's interesting that the people who claim to be the most patriotic fly the flag of a regime that rebelled against the U.S. to defend slavery.


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Old 06-24-2015, 09:11 PM   #24
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I know many southerners who feel as if the flag is about "heritage" as well as honoring the Civil War dead.

And I'm still unnerved when I see one of those in public -- saw one planted in the sand on South Padre Island a few years ago. I, a white male northern gay of a certain income and education, felt uncomfortable.
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Old 06-24-2015, 09:50 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by iron yuppie View Post
I don't think that, in the year 2015, flying the Confederate flag or displaying it has anything whatsoever to do with loyalty or lack thereof to the United States government.
I don't really think that's the issue. The flag is not going to cause South Carolina to secede from the Union.

The issue is that by flying that flag in that spot, the government of South Carolina is honoring the values that the Confederacy stood for as exactly equal to the values of the other flags flying there. Those include (presumably) the flag of the United States as well as that of South Carolina (I dig the palmetto, btw).

At least that's how the military treats flags, and I'm pretty sure civilian protocol is very similar.
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Old 06-24-2015, 10:02 PM   #26
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I don't really think that's the issue. The flag is not going to cause South Carolina to secede from the Union.

The issue is that by flying that flag in that spot, the government of South Carolina is honoring the values that the Confederacy stood for as exactly equal to the values of the other flags flying there. Those include (presumably) the flag of the United States as well as that of South Carolina (I dig the palmetto, btw).

At least that's how the military treats flags, and I'm pretty sure civilian protocol is very similar.
I get that, I do. I don't support the Confederate flag in any way, shape, or form. The only point I want to make here is that, if a state institution flying the Confederate Flag is akin to honoring a past blighted with racism, the same goes for the United States flag. We could point to any number of instances of state-sponsored racism from the US government: African-Americans, Native Americans, Irish, Japanese, Middle Easterners...the list goes on. So by the logic of censoring the Confederate flag on the basis of a racist past, the same could go for the US flag.
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Old 06-24-2015, 10:04 PM   #27
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But it's not just the racism factor, and that's the part I feel like you're ignoring.
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Old 06-24-2015, 10:06 PM   #28
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So by the logic of censoring the Confederate flag on the basis of a racist past, the same could go for the US flag.
You're not necessarily wrong here, but you aren't seeing the forest for the trees.
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Old 06-24-2015, 10:23 PM   #29
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I get that, I do. I don't support the Confederate flag in any way, shape, or form. The only point I want to make here is that, if a state institution flying the Confederate Flag is akin to honoring a past blighted with racism, the same goes for the United States flag. We could point to any number of instances of state-sponsored racism from the US government: African-Americans, Native Americans, Irish, Japanese, Middle Easterners...the list goes on. So by the logic of censoring the Confederate flag on the basis of a racist past, the same could go for the US flag.

Yes, but the U.S. was founded on the ideals of liberty, justice, and equality for all, even though we didn't measure up to those ideals at the time and still don't. The Confederacy on the other hand was founded on the ideal of keeping black people in chains. That's the key difference.


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Old 06-24-2015, 10:54 PM   #30
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Yes, but the U.S. was founded on the ideals of liberty, justice, and equality for all, even though we didn't measure up to those ideals at the time and still don't. The Confederacy on the other hand was founded on the ideal of keeping black people in chains. That's the key difference.
We'll have to disagree here. The rhetoric of equality doesn't mean a damn thing in a society that went out of its way to disenfranchise well north of 50% of the population.
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