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Old 08-24-2009, 07:19 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post

There'll never be a hero's "welcome home" for Timothy Mcvey.
I'm sure there wouldn't be for this guy either if he bombed his own Government's building

Failing miserably to see the McVey parallel I'm afraid.......
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Old 08-24-2009, 07:27 PM   #32
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I'm sure there wouldn't be for this guy either if he bombed his own Government's building

Failing miserably to see the McVey parallel I'm afraid.......
He's saying that because McVeigh was put to death, there's no chance of a hero's welcome.
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Old 08-24-2009, 07:30 PM   #33
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He's saying that because McVeigh was put to death, there's no chance of a hero's welcome.
yeah.......but you could have said that about anyone who had been executed, why McVey ? Who would be giving him a hero's welcome ? And is that being proposed as the basis for deciding when to take a life ? "this guy might get a hero's welcome when he gets out, kill him"
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Old 08-24-2009, 11:05 PM   #34
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Except of course when "life" becomes something other than "life."

Whether you agree or disagree that the death penalty has the advantages of being a deterrent and equal justice to the crime; you must admit that at least it prevents this type of B.S.

There'll never be a hero's "welcome home" for Timothy Mcvey.
Did you read where I said that I didn't think he should have been released?

And yes, I agree that a hero's welcome for a convicted terrorist is disgusting. But that doesn't make me want to support the death penalty.
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Old 08-25-2009, 03:18 AM   #35
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Except of course when "life" becomes something other than "life."

Whether you agree or disagree that the death penalty has the advantages of being a deterrent and equal justice to the crime; you must admit that at least it prevents this type of B.S.

There'll never be a hero's "welcome home" for Timothy Mcvey.
The death penalty is not and never has been a deterrent. Homicide rates are roughly the same on average in US states which have capital punishment and those which don't. There are a couple of arguments supporting capital punishment but the deterrent argument has always been a fallacy. If the threat of spending the rest or majority of the rest of your life in Prison isn't enough, spending 20 years on Death row then dying isn't exactly a major threat either. The numbers do not support capital punishment as a deterrent.
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Old 08-25-2009, 09:38 AM   #36
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The death penalty is not and never has been a deterrent. Homicide rates are roughly the same on average in US states which have capital punishment and those which don't. There are a couple of arguments supporting capital punishment but the deterrent argument has always been a fallacy. If the threat of spending the rest or majority of the rest of your life in Prison isn't enough, spending 20 years on Death row then dying isn't exactly a major threat either. The numbers do not support capital punishment as a deterrent.
Thank you for pointing that out.

Also, McVey wanted to be executed, which is exactly the reason he shouldn't have been. Let him rot in solitary.

When cost of appeals are factored in, it can be more expensive to execute someone that is to sentence them to life with no chance of parole.

These guys have some great research on the "fairness" of the U.S. judicial process:

The Sentencing Project Home


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Old 08-25-2009, 10:58 AM   #37
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The death penalty is not and never has been a deterrent. Homicide rates are roughly the same on average in US states which have capital punishment and those which don't.

actually, i'd say they're probably on average worse. i'm pretty sure Texas has a much higher murder rate than Massachusetts.

but the problem, of course, is not just that it isn't a deterrent at all, but the availability of guns.
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Old 08-25-2009, 11:45 AM   #38
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By VICTOR EPSTEIN and SAMANTHA HENRY, Associated Press Writers – Mon Aug 24

ENGLEWOOD, N.J. – Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi will set foot on U.S. soil for the first time next month when he comes to address the U.N. General Assembly. Now he wants to put down stakes in the middle of American suburbia.

Plans to set up a tent and allow him to stay at a Libyan-owned estate in this upscale community 12 miles north of Manhattan, were attacked Monday by neighborhood residents and public officials, particularly after the hero's welcome extended by Libya last week to the lone man convicted in the 1988 bombing of Pan American Flight 103.

The attack over Lockerbie, Scotland, thought to be the work of Libyan intelligence, killed all 259 people on board the flight, including 33 from New Jersey. Abdel Baset al-Megrahi was freed from a life sentence in a Scottish jail and returned to Libya on compassionate grounds because he is dying of cancer.

"Gadhafi is a dangerous dictator whose hands are covered with the blood of Americans and our allies," said U.S. Rep. Steve Rothman, whose district includes Englewood. He promised there would be "hell to pay" if the U.S. State Department violates a long-standing deal barring the dictator from staying at the Libyan estate.

State department officials said no decision had been made on the issue.

Rothman was mayor of Englewood 26 years ago when the city learned the Libyan Mission to the United Nations had purchased the Palisade Avenue estate. He said local officials worked out a deal with the U.S. State Department limiting its use to the recreational activities by the ambassador and his family. The Libyans don't pay taxes on the estate, he said.

Gadhafi's U.N. appearance culminates a yearslong effort to rehabilitate the Libyan strongman's international image, which has included denouncing terrorism and weapons of mass destruction. He's ruled the oil rich North African kingdom since 1969.

"This is what happens when you have the path of appeasement," Susan Cohen, of Cape May Court House, New Jersey, said of the prospect of Gadhafi staying in Englewood. "He's getting everything he wants, and I guess that includes a trip to the state of New Jersey, which certainly doesn't need this."

Cohen's 20-year-old daughter died in the Scottish bombing.

Englewood is an upscale community of 28,000 residents that's located about 12 miles north of Manhattan. About 15 percent are Jewish, according to Rothman.

Shmuley Boteach, an orthodox Jewish rabbi, family counselor and star of the mainstream television series "Shalom in the Home," lives next door to the Libyan estate. He said the mansion has been renovated over the past three months with nearly 100 people working there.

He was initially supportive of the idea of Gadhafi coming to the U.S., but that changed after the release of al-Megrahi.

"I don't want him as a neighbor," said Boteach. "The events of the past few days have changed everything. Gadhafi has shown his true colors."

Bob Monetti of Cherry Hill, N.J., whose 20-year-old son died in the bombing, said allowing Gadhafi to stay in New Jersey would make it more difficult to live with what's happened.

"When he's in his tent in the desert in Libya he's a distant character that we can hate at arm's length, but when he comes to New Jersey, it just means he's on our home turf, and we don't want him on our home turf," he said.

In Washington, U.S. officials said Englewood was one option the Libyans were looking at to pitch the tent after their request to set it up New York's Central Park had been denied due to logistics and security concerns.

"We have been talking to the U.N. about this issue, we've been talking to the New York City authorities about the issue of where Mr. Gadhafi is going to stay, but no decisions have been made," State Department spokesman Ian Kelly said Monday. "No decision has been made about where anybody's going to pitch a tent."

Ahmed Gebreel, a spokesman for the Libyan Mission to the United Nations in Manhattan, did not return a reporter's phone call for this story.

However, Nicole DiCocco, spokeswoman for the Libyan Embassy in Washington, D.C., confirmed that the Libyan government owns the property in Englewood and it's a possible site for Gadhafi. She said that he would not live in the tent, but use it for entertainment purposes.

"We own the residence in Englewood, but it hasn't been confirmed that he'll be staying there," DiCocco said.

U.S. Sen Frank Lautenberg has asked the State Department to limit Gadhafi's travel in the U.S. to the U.N. headquarters district.
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Old 08-25-2009, 11:50 AM   #39
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Should mercy be shown to him or should he have to die in prison?


No mercy. He should have been executed a long time ago.

Can you imagine being a family member of the kids that died in that plane? Just thing about that.
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Old 08-25-2009, 12:02 PM   #40
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No mercy. He should have been executed a long time ago.


Tough to do in a country with no death penalty.

Still, good to see that bloodlust is alive and well in a "Christian" country.





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Can you imagine being a family member of the kids that died in that plane? Just thing about that.
Some of the victims' families actually agreed with the release.
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Old 08-25-2009, 12:14 PM   #41
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Plenty of Christians don't support the death penalty, under any and all circumstances. I don't think he should have been executed because I don't support it at all. But I also think the least that could be done now for these families is to not have Gadhafi staying at that estate. They've suffered enough and that's hardly too much to ask for.
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Old 08-25-2009, 04:30 PM   #42
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In the Lockerbie case, the following from 2001 offers a pretty good synopsis of the problems with the original case and why the UK government wished the appeal to be stopped. The primary reason behind the release. Megrahi was forced to give up his appeal in order to be released, and was initially refused trial by jury, but instead had a trial in front of hand-picked judges. Having read the case and the available court transcripts, it's very unlikely that jury would have found him guilty. This is also one of the main reasons that the UK based families of the victims have long been campaigning for a public inquiry.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2001/ju...bie.features11

The hope of the UK government was that this would all go away with the minimum of fuss upon his release, the events on his arrival in Libya have put pay to that.
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Old 08-25-2009, 05:08 PM   #43
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In the Lockerbie case, the following from 2001 offers a pretty good synopsis of the problems with the original case and why the UK government wished the appeal to be stopped. The primary reason behind the release. Megrahi was forced to give up his appeal in order to be released, and was initially refused trial by jury, but instead had a trial in front of hand-picked judges. Having read the case and the available court transcripts, it's very unlikely that jury would have found him guilty. This is also one of the main reasons that the UK based families of the victims have long been campaigning for a public inquiry.

The Lockerbie trial: a top-level cover-up? | UK news | The Guardian

The hope of the UK government was that this would all go away with the minimum of fuss upon his release, the events on his arrival in Libya have put pay to that.
Well CLEARLY there's no ambiguity and no chance AT ALL that he's 100% guilty, hang him high.......

The Death Penalty really IS the way to go, wrongful convictions just don't happen.
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Old 08-30-2009, 03:46 AM   #44
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now this

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Iraqi who threw shoes at Bush to be released early

By KIM GAMEL, Associated Press Writer Kim Gamel, Associated Press Writer Sat Aug 29, 12:09 pm ET

BAGHDAD – An Iraqi journalist imprisoned for hurling his shoes at former President George W. Bush will be released next month after his sentence was reduced for good behavior, his lawyer said Saturday.

Muntadhar al-Zeidi's act of protest during Bush's last visit to Iraq as president turned the 30-year-old reporter into a folk hero across the Arab world, as his case became a rallying point for critics who resented the 2003 U.S. invasion and occupation.

"Al-Zeidi's shoes were a suitable farewell for Bush's deeds in Iraq," Sunni lawmaker Dhafir al-Ani said in welcoming the early release. "Al-Zeidi's act expressed the real will and feelings of the Iraqi people. His anger against Bush was the result of the suffering of his countrymen."

The journalist has been in custody since the Dec. 14 outburst, which occurred as Bush was holding a news conference with Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki. Al-Maliki, who was standing next to Bush at the time, was said to have been deeply offended by the act.

Al-Zeidi was initially sentenced to three years in prison after pleading not guilty to assaulting a foreign leader. The court reduced it to one year because the journalist had no prior criminal history.

Defense attorney Karim al-Shujairi said al-Zeidi will now be released on Sept. 14, three months early.

"We have been informed officially about the court decision," al-Shujairi told The Associated Press in a telephone interview. "His release will be a victory for the free and honorable Iraqi media."

Judicial spokesman Abdul-Sattar Bayrkdar said he had no immediate information about the release because it was a weekend.

Followers of anti-U.S. cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, who were among the leaders of many of the demonstrations demanding al-Zeidi's release, welcomed the decision to free him early.

"We believe that al-Zeidi did not commit any crime but only expressed the will of the Iraqi people in rejecting the U.S. occupation," Sadrist lawmaker Falah Shanshal said. "Al-Zeidi's image will always be a heroic one."
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Old 08-30-2009, 03:49 AM   #45
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why wasn't he put to death? what a waste on society.
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