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Old 10-06-2010, 03:18 PM   #106
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kids use the words "gay" and "fag" and whatever as schoolyard taunts from a very young age, if memory serves around 3rd grade.

we should also remember that straight kids, and prepubescent kids, can be the victim of homophobic bullying as well.
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Old 10-06-2010, 05:08 PM   #107
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Maybe I'm daft but I'm totally missing your point. You've never seen or heard of a kid under the age of 14 being bullied? I saw kids in my own class get picked on when I was in 2nd grade, I remember it well. One boy always picked on another boy (as in, he would attack him and starting fighting him physically for no reason other than the boy being bullied was small, looked kinda weird, and acted strange). It happens everyday. Not all homosexuals are bullied and not all bullying has to do with homophobia.
You are missing my point. And it's 13 we're talking about here.

I never said all homosexuals are bullied and I never said all bullying has to do with homophobia. I never made that case.

I'm saying that they're acting way ahead of their age here. 13 year olds dont just go out commiting suicide for being bullied. Look here -

Children ages 10 to 14 — 0.9 per 100,000
Adolescents ages 15 to 19 — 6.9 per 100,000
Young adults ages 20 to 24 — 12.7 per 100,000

The point I'm trying to make is that emotional stress will not begin to destroy you on the inside if you're 10 years old. Bullying might suck for you, but it's really hard for an undeveloped mind to go to such a dark place.

If he was bullied and taunted for being gay, it could only have been going on for so long, because he was only 13 years old. So either he was a very weak individual (I mean that in no disprespect, rest in peace), or was tormented beyond belief. Or he got the idea from someone else.

With most kids, and most suicides, the most delicate age is going to be those high school and early college years between 15 and 19. So the fact that when I was reading the article about the 6 or 7 that have killed themselves so far, I was quite shocked to learn that two of them are 13 years old.
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Old 10-06-2010, 06:28 PM   #108
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I'm saying that they're acting way ahead of their age here. 13 year olds dont just go out commiting suicide for being bullied. Look here -

Children ages 10 to 14 — 0.9 per 100,000
Adolescents ages 15 to 19 — 6.9 per 100,000
Young adults ages 20 to 24 — 12.7 per 100,000
By 2006 this number had risen to 1.3 per 100,000 for 10-14 year olds. I can't seem to find any 2009 numbers.


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The point I'm trying to make is that emotional stress will not begin to destroy you on the inside if you're 10 years old. Bullying might suck for you, but it's really hard for an undeveloped mind to go to such a dark place.

If he was bullied and taunted for being gay, it could only have been going on for so long, because he was only 13 years old. So either he was a very weak individual (I mean that in no disprespect, rest in peace), or was tormented beyond belief. Or he got the idea from someone else.

With most kids, and most suicides, the most delicate age is going to be those high school and early college years between 15 and 19. So the fact that when I was reading the article about the 6 or 7 that have killed themselves so far, I was quite shocked to learn that two of them are 13 years old.
I just have a hard time understanding why you don't believe it's possible for a 13 year old to be shattered by constant bullying yet you do believe it's possible that a 13 year old can be influenced into suicide. That baffles me.
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Old 10-06-2010, 06:59 PM   #109
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i mean, it's TIM GUNN.

this should tell you the deep psychological wounds that homophobia inflicts on even the most confident, intelligent, everything-in-the-world-to-live-for individuals. i would imagine that more LGBT individuals have been suicidal at various points than not.
I read his new book and he definitely grew up in a different time-but his childhood dynamics could be anyone's, could be any gay teen's dynamic. I don't think his father was all that interested in him because Tim wasn't into sports and all that-and his mother doesn't fully acknowledge the fact that he's gay to this day. She just asks him isn't he afraid of being alone in his old age. I believe he says he was bullied by other kids.

I don't understand at all why it's hard to believe that any bullied child would resort to suicide because of bullying, so I think it's even more plausible for a gay child. I remember what it was like to be 13, and I had it much easier as far as being teased or bullied. I can't imagine what it's like for a gay teen who is struggling to deal with that additional harassment from people . At the same time they're trying to accept themselves as kids who just happen to be gay.

I don't see anything "weak" about a 13 year old who can't handle being emotionally and physically tormented. Thirteen and fifteen-not much difference. It's really just a number, every child is different emotionally and developmentally. Kids don't follow any strict rules as to how they can cope with abuse from others according to their age.
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Old 10-06-2010, 07:13 PM   #110
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You are missing my point. And it's 13 we're talking about here.

I never said all homosexuals are bullied and I never said all bullying has to do with homophobia. I never made that case.

I'm saying that they're acting way ahead of their age here. 13 year olds dont just go out commiting suicide for being bullied. Look here -

Children ages 10 to 14 — 0.9 per 100,000
Adolescents ages 15 to 19 — 6.9 per 100,000
Young adults ages 20 to 24 — 12.7 per 100,000

The point I'm trying to make is that emotional stress will not begin to destroy you on the inside if you're 10 years old. Bullying might suck for you, but it's really hard for an undeveloped mind to go to such a dark place.

If he was bullied and taunted for being gay, it could only have been going on for so long, because he was only 13 years old. So either he was a very weak individual (I mean that in no disprespect, rest in peace), or was tormented beyond belief. Or he got the idea from someone else.

With most kids, and most suicides, the most delicate age is going to be those high school and early college years between 15 and 19. So the fact that when I was reading the article about the 6 or 7 that have killed themselves so far, I was quite shocked to learn that two of them are 13 years old.

I guess I don't see why this even matters? Are you saying that these kids did NOT commit suicide? They don't fit your nice data sets so obviously there is a new trend here, I think that is the point many people are trying to draw attention to. Saying that it just can't happen is denial. Obviously it IS happening so what can be done about it?

By 13 years old I was completely physically mature. Now, I was a "normal" kid with a fairly normal life so I was not subject bullying or overly stressed by a bad home situation, but when you are 13 and your body is 100% developed but your emotions (as you say, and I tend to agree) are not, then to me it only makes sense that a 13 year old has a hard time coping with stress like constant bullying and would resort to overly drastic measures like suicide because of emotional immaturity and a lack of coping skills (which I think is a problem overall with the younger generations, kids seem more and more to be losing the ability to cope). Like I said, I was normal, did well in school, was not strange looking or strange acting, had friends and all that, and even I felt self-conscious and anxious more often than not. I don't want to imagine what it would have been like under the pressure of constant bullying and harassment. As an 11 year old I had enough confusion and self-consciousness about my own body without that thrown into the mix.
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Old 10-06-2010, 07:39 PM   #111
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I would guarantee it.

And they bully the members of the "lame-ass" educational system that try to stop their kids.
Oh, yes, that, too. They do that, and then if something horrible happens, they turn around and go, "Why didn't the school do something, blah, blah, blah". Like I've said before, I remember a lot of the kids I went to school with who were bullies grew up in homes where they had little to no parental guidance of any kind. It's a vicious cycle and I don't know how much longer it has to go on before we start holding not only the kids accountable, but the "parents" that encourage such behavior.

I also think Headache's post is spot on, too. Certainly society doesn't help matters by getting off on watching this stuff unfold. We have to know every last little detail of everyone's lives and hold it up to absolute scrutiny-I'm sorry, I like having some modicum of privacy. I think everybody deserves that in their lives. I don't know why people constantly feel every minute detail of their lives are worth sharing or why people feel they need to know such things. It especially is bad in the sex/body arena, and of course, I know why that stuff is so fascinating to other people, but at the same time I don't. Do people honestly think the issues related to those two things are so wildly different from person to person?

As for Tim Gunn, I've only seen a few interviews on TV with him here and there, but from what I've observed about him, he sounds like a really cool, likable guy . I'm very sorry to hear about what he went through as a teenager, and I'm glad to hear/see that he was able to move past those struggles and go on to have a life he clearly enjoys living. I've no doubt he's an inspiration for quite a few people out there, so hopefully they'll take his story to heart and can fight through whatever pain they're dealing with in their own lives.

Angela
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Old 10-06-2010, 07:49 PM   #112
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What about "I saw him making out with a dude. Yay"?

Clementi Tragedy: Tech Teens' Lust to Expose Isn't Same as Gay-Bashing - New America Media

New America Media, Op-ed, Sandip Roy, Posted: Oct 01, 2010

After two decades in the United States, I still feel a thrill of recognition when I see a South Asian name in the media. A winner on a cooking show on the Food Network, a congressional candidate in Kansas, a new appointee to some team on the White House - it does not matter, there is always that twinge of pride.

I look out for these names.

That was why I noticed Dharun Ravi’s name. And felt a chill go through me. Tyler Clementi, 18, had jumped off the George Washington Bridge after his roommate and a friend secretly taped him on their webcam having a sexual encounter with another man. And then they streamed it on the Internet.

The roommate’s name was Dharun Ravi. The headline on one article said “Dharun Ravi: The Reason for Tyler Clementi’s Suicide.”

It has a picture of Ravi and the other person involved, Molly Wei. They look like high school yearbook photos. Ravi has curly hair, and a broad smile. He is wearing a black tie and black jacket. He looks like my cousins in New Jersey, the ones that go to Bhangra parties and have stellar GPAs.

It’s easy to call this a horrifying example of homophobia. Ellen Degeneres recorded a moving message about how even in 2010, teenagers are killing themselves because they get bullied for appearing gay.

Yet, I am not sure that is the story. I know nothing about Ravi. I just kept thinking as a newly arrived Indian college student in America, I would have not dared to come out to folks like Ravi’s parents. I would think they would not understand.

But, I would have had no qualms coming out to someone like Dharun Ravi.

My activist friend Urvashi Vaid who went on to head the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force often said not to worry about the conservatism of the uncle-auntie generation of the Indian immigrant community. It’s all changing with the next generation, she’d say. Her nephew was cool with all this. As is my niece. They have grown up knowing gay people. It’s not a big deal.

Could it be too much “not a big deal?” I don’t think it’s as simple as saying Ravi was homophobic. This is not Matthew Shepard in Laramie, Wyoming, pistol-whipped and left to die, tied to a fence like a scarecrow by men he met at a bar. That was 1998.

This is 2010. Clementi was out to Ravi. He requested permission to use the room to entertain his date. He complained on a forum that his roommate was tweeting about him and had turned the webcam on. He thought about moving out but worried a new roommate could be worse. He said he was “pissed” and his roommate was “obnoxious.” He sounds annoyed, not suicidal, paranoid about finding all the webcams.

In a strange way this is about a nonchalance around sexuality where it has become a public sport. A few years ago, a teenager in India videotaped his female classmate performing oral sex on him on his cell phone and emailed it around. It got auctioned off on India's subsidiary of eBay and became a viral sensation. The young woman apparently had to leave the country. Did he intend to hound her out of the country? Probably not. Just as Ravi and Wei probably never intended for Clementi to jump off a bridge.

Maybe they thought they were just having fun. A sort of online game of showmanship and truth-or-dare with ever higher stakes. Privacy meant nothing. It was just a game and they needed to outfox Clementi to get to the next level. We want people to watch us online. We want them to follow us on Twitter. We don’t care that our online hijinks have real-life consequences. It’s as if we get more points in our virtual worlds if we catch our friends in flagrante delicto. We are perpetually on candid camera, playing gotcha with our webcams.

Coming out has always been a lonely process. You could grow up in a country with a billion people and not know how to find another gay person. I remember standing in a phone booth in Mumbai, trying to pluck up the courage to call a newsweekly because one of their editors had come out as gay in an article I had read. I never did make the call.

The Internet changed that. Now gay men and women, coming out in small towns, in remote corners can safely find other people to chat with, create virtual world wide webs of support while sitting in their own bedrooms. An Internet group in India, GayBombay eventually became a flesh-and-blood group that hosted parent support meets.

Yet, Clementi's death proves the Internet is a double-edged sword. Ravi and Wei are accused by the media of sexually harassing and bullying Clementi. That they could have done any time, in person, in private. They were not even trying to out him. They just wanted the world to see him online with his pants down. They wanted to tweet about it. They wanted to make his private encounter a "free show" for the world to see. They probably thought it was not a big deal. But it was. Horribly so. Done without his consent and streamed to the whole world to see.

It's just life in the online world where everything is fair game and privacy is just a Facebook option.

Chillingly, Clementi left behind his last message as an update on his Facebook page.

"Jumping off the gw bridge, sorry."


Sandip Roy

Posted 3 days ago

I dont think I am trying to excuse their behavior or justify it. I am just saying the story is more complicated than a straightforward case of homophobia. Look, I am Indian American, I know there is homophobia in spades in my community. But in this case, i think there is also something going on about the role of privacy and our online lives. It struck me that the way we have tried to reconstruct what happened was from online records. The way these two kids tried to humiliate Clementi was online. The way Clementi left his "suicide note" was online.
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Old 10-06-2010, 08:23 PM   #113
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I guess I don't see why this even matters? Are you saying that these kids did NOT commit suicide? They don't fit your nice data sets so obviously there is a new trend here, I think that is the point many people are trying to draw attention to. Saying that it just can't happen is denial. Obviously it IS happening so what can be done about it?

By 13 years old I was completely physically mature. Now, I was a "normal" kid with a fairly normal life so I was not subject bullying or overly stressed by a bad home situation, but when you are 13 and your body is 100% developed but your emotions (as you say, and I tend to agree) are not, then to me it only makes sense that a 13 year old has a hard time coping with stress like constant bullying and would resort to overly drastic measures like suicide because of emotional immaturity and a lack of coping skills (which I think is a problem overall with the younger generations, kids seem more and more to be losing the ability to cope). Like I said, I was normal, did well in school, was not strange looking or strange acting, had friends and all that, and even I felt self-conscious and anxious more often than not. I don't want to imagine what it would have been like under the pressure of constant bullying and harassment. As an 11 year old I had enough confusion and self-consciousness about my own body without that thrown into the mix.
What? Where are you getting this ridiculous notion? Where did I once conspire against anybody, or claim that they didnt actually commot suicide? And why are you being so obnoxious? No, I'm not saying any of this.

Most people are not physically matured at age 13. I'm not saying you were not, but most people are not done growing until their junior year or so in high school.

That's besides the matter. You're looking right through my point. You seem to think that I am trying to say more than I've said. In reality, what you see is what's there. I'm shocked that they're so young. So it must've been a pretty bad case, more than you really think. Being a homosexual might be hard, but being bullied/teased/mocked for being homosexual varies on levels just like anything else does. In which case, I made the point that it was probably really bad because 13 year olds dont just go off and kill themselves like the older people do. The older you get, so to speak, the higher the rate is.
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Old 10-06-2010, 08:26 PM   #114
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By 2006 this number had risen to 1.3 per 100,000 for 10-14 year olds. I can't seem to find any 2009 numbers.




I just have a hard time understanding why you don't believe it's possible for a 13 year old to be shattered by constant bullying yet you do believe it's possible that a 13 year old can be influenced into suicide. That baffles me.
I never said that. Read what I wrote above, and combine that with the idea that a 15 year old was once 14, and 13, and 12, and 11, and 10. There's more of a history with an older person. Essentially the older you get, the more battered and bruised you become. So these kids must've taken a pretty hard couple of first hits (if that analogy works for you).
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Old 10-06-2010, 08:47 PM   #115
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The fact is that this kid, in all likelihood, was only mocked/teased/bullied/these terms are all synonymous/etc. for about a year or two.
That's where I disagree with you on the "facts" and have a hard time understanding where the fact even came from. Statistically, does it matter how long someone is bullied before they commit suicide? Are there stats to support this (long term bullying vs. some "catastrophic" event in ones life and comparing the suicide rates)?

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most people are not done growing until their junior year or so in high school.
That is news to me. Avg. age to start a menstrual cycle for a girl is 12 and generally a girl is basically mature 2 years after that cycle starts. These days it's increasingly common for girls to start earlier. I thought I was early and now my little cousins are on birth control to regulate their cycles well before they start high school. I asked my doctor about this and she just shrugged and said it is not at all uncommon.
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Old 10-06-2010, 08:50 PM   #116
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That's where I disagree with you on the "facts" and have a hard time understanding where the fact even came from...
If his peers only knew that he was gay when he came out... and that's what we were discussing (him being mocked/bullied for being homosexual)... I highly doubt he came out any time before 11 years old.
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Old 10-06-2010, 08:59 PM   #117
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From the article, says he was picked on for a number of reasons before he came out:

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Brown, his family said, was "bullied to death" — picked on for his small size, his religion and because he did not wear designer clothes and shoes. Kids also accused him of being gay, some of them performing mock gay acts on him in his physical education class, his mother and stepfather said.
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Old 10-06-2010, 09:07 PM   #118
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That is news to me. Avg. age to start a menstrual cycle for a girl is 12 and generally a girl is basically mature 2 years after that cycle starts. These days it's increasingly common for girls to start earlier. I thought I was early and now my little cousins are on birth control to regulate their cycles well before they start high school. I asked my doctor about this and she just shrugged and said it is not at all uncommon.
You're talking about a girl my friend. I'm talking about a boy. Girls mature earlier than guys do. And physically speaking, especially, boys are not done maturing until they're around 16 to 18 years old. I was in high school not too long ago (less than a year).

Relevant to the story, however, we're talking about boys. Who dont even start maturing until about 11 to 13 years old.
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Old 10-06-2010, 09:19 PM   #119
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In which case... most stuff that goes on in school stays in school.
Really?
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Old 10-06-2010, 09:29 PM   #120
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Really?
Are you suggesting the opposite? Do you really think that kids run home and tell their parents everything? Even more - do you think that these kids are forced to see each other?
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