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Old 10-03-2010, 02:25 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by GirlsAloudFan View Post
This is really strange. Did anyone else read this?

If this actually is Clementi making these posts, man, that really doesn't read like the words or thoughts of someone about to take his own life.

We all post on a message board, obviously, so we all know that the tone of our posts doesn't necessarily come anywhere close to what we're actually feeling, can be misconstrued, etc.

But, still. I can't help thinking that something else had to have happened after these posts were made, and before he jumped off the bridge.
I agree with you, something is just off about this whole thing which is why it might be smart to hold off on jumping to conclusions.

Like did his roommate really do this solely because he was gay? If Tyler was straight, and the roommate found out he belonged to a straight porn site/community (similar to justusboys.com) and sex webcam site (such as cam4.com) and was continually asking to have the room to himself to do things on webcam or have a girl over, would the roommate still have done the whole webcam "prank"? I could see where he might still do it, so I'm not 100% sure that it was just a homophobia thing.

Secondly, did Tyler really jump just because of the webcam incident? He seemed very rational in his posts on the message board. After discovering the webcam, he just unplugged it, looked for others, then still had a good time with his friend. If he was that distraught over it to where he wanted to kill himself, I have a hard time seeing how he would still go through with it, post about it on a message board, then talk to an RA the next day. What else happened after that? Maybe the guy dumped him and that's what really caused him to be depressed?

Whatever really did happen, the whole situation is tragic. I just don't think it's such a clear cut case that people are making it out to be.
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Old 10-03-2010, 06:17 AM   #77
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I have been thinking about this a lot the past few days, and the one good thing I can see coming out of it is that there's something new in the air, there's the sense that this is the real beginning of a public war on homophobia. I can only hope.
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Old 10-03-2010, 10:33 PM   #78
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I agree with you, something is just off about this whole thing which is why it might be smart to hold off on jumping to conclusions.

Like did his roommate really do this solely because he was gay? If Tyler was straight, and the roommate found out he belonged to a straight porn site/community (similar to justusboys.com) and sex webcam site (such as cam4.com) and was continually asking to have the room to himself to do things on webcam or have a girl over, would the roommate still have done the whole webcam "prank"? I could see where he might still do it, so I'm not 100% sure that it was just a homophobia thing.

Secondly, did Tyler really jump just because of the webcam incident? He seemed very rational in his posts on the message board. After discovering the webcam, he just unplugged it, looked for others, then still had a good time with his friend. If he was that distraught over it to where he wanted to kill himself, I have a hard time seeing how he would still go through with it, post about it on a message board, then talk to an RA the next day. What else happened after that? Maybe the guy dumped him and that's what really caused him to be depressed?

Whatever really did happen, the whole situation is tragic. I just don't think it's such a clear cut case that people are making it out to be.
That's what I was trying to get at in my previous post. He drove all the way to the GW Bridge to off himself solely because that video was posted? That seems quite a long distance for a decision made in a "haste." Even on a good day, new bru to nyc is at LEAST an hour commute by car.

It's tragic that he took his own life, but the circumstances seem pretty nebulous to me at the moment.
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Old 10-04-2010, 09:12 AM   #79
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I think people can seem very rational on a message board and still have many troubling things going on in their lives. Just like you still have to function at your job and in school or wherever-it's a necessary thing unless you just want to crawl under the covers and completely retreat. That's not always the case with depression and or suicidal thoughts, that it's obvious in every facet of your life or even obvious at all-that's one reason why, when suicide happens, that people around the person can have no idea what was going on in their lives or inside their heads. Sometimes people with so much turmoil going on inside their heads and hearts can still compartmentalize and seemingly function very well. That's one reason why the phrase "dying inside" exists.

Regardless of the reasons for Tyler's suicide what those two did, if that's what they did, is still despicable and it needs to stop.
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Old 10-04-2010, 07:03 PM   #80
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Dan Savage says it better than i could in a response to this letter:


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I was listening to the radio yesterday morning and I heard your interview with Beth McDonald. I have been thinking about it a lot since then and I feel compelled to share my thoughts with you. I was saddened and frustrated with your comments regarding people of faith and their perpetuation of bulling. As someone who loves the Lord and does not support gay marriage I can honestly say I was heartbroken to hear about the young man that took his own life after being humiliated by people who should have known better. I think you need to be aware of your own prejuduces and how they might play into your thinking. At best I think your comments were hypocritical.

If your message is that we should not judge people based on their sexual preferance, how do you justify judging entire groups of people for any other reason (including their faith)? There is no part of me that took any pleasure in what happened to that young man and I know for a fact that is true of many other people who disagree with your viewpoint. Please be aware that your words are powerful and people are listening to you.

To that end, to imply that I would somehow encourage my children to mock, hurt, or intimidate another person for any reason is completely unfounded and offensive. Being a follower of Christ is, above all things, a recognition that we are imperfect, fallible and in desperate need of a savior. We cannot believe that we are better or more worthy than other people. I have never in my life know someone who loved the Lord who wished ill will on other people and certainly not death "so that [we] can perpetuate [our own] agenda."

Please consider your viewpoint and please be more careful with your words in the future.

L. R.

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I'm sorry your feelings were hurt by my comments.

No, wait. I'm not. Gay kids are dying. So let's try to keep things in perspective: fuck your feelings.

A question: do you support atheist marriage? Interfaith marriage? Divorce and remarriage? All legal, of course, and there's no Christian movement to deny marriage rights to atheists or people marrying outside their respective faiths or to people divorcing and remarrying. Why the hell not?

Being told that they're sinful and that their love offends God, and being told that their relationships are unworthy of the civil right that is marriage (not the religious rite that some people use to solemnize their civil marriages), can eat away at the souls of gay kids. It makes them feel like they're not valued, that their lives are not worth living. And if one of your children is unlucky enough to be gay, the anti-gay bigotry you espouse makes them doubt that their parents truly love them—to say nothing of the gentle "savior" they've heard so much about, a gentle and loving father who will condemn them to hell for the sin of falling in love with the wrong person.

The children of people who see gay people as sinful or damaged or disordered and unworthy of full civil equality—even if those people strive to express their bigotry in the politest possible way (at least when they happen to be addressing a gay person)—learn to see gay people as sinful, damaged, disordered, and unworthy. And while there may not be any gay adults or couples where you live, or at your church, or at your workplace, I promise you that there are gay and lesbian children in your schools. You may only attack gays and lesbians at the ballot box, nice and impersonally, but your children have the option of attacking actual real gays and lesbians, in person, in real time.

Real gay and lesbian children. Not political abstractions, not "sinners." Real gay and lesbian children.

The dehumanizing bigotries that fall from lips of "faithful Christians," and the lies that spew forth from the pulpit of the churches "faithful Christians" drag their kids to on Sundays, give your straight children a license to verbally abuse, humiliate and condemn the gay children they encounter at school. And many of your straight children—having listened to mom and dad talk about how gay marriage is a threat to the family and how gay sex makes their magic sky friend Jesus cry himself to sleep—feel justified in physically attacking the gay and lesbian children they encounter in their schools. You don't have to explicitly "encourage [your] children to mock, hurt, or intimidate" gay kids. Your encouragement—along with your hatred and fear—is implicit. It's here, it's clear, and we can see the fruits of it.

Oh, and those same dehumanizing bigotries that fill your straight children with hate? They fill your gay children with suicidal despair. And you have the nerve to ask me to be more careful with my words.

Did that hurt to hear? Good. But hearing it couldn't have hurt nearly as much as what the boys in the photo above had to listen to—day-in, day-out, for years—at schools filled with bigoted little monsters created not in the image of a loving God, but in the images of the hateful and false "followers of Christ" they call "mom and dad."
SL Letter of the Day: Almost Sorry | Slog | The Stranger, Seattle's Only Newspaper
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Old 10-04-2010, 07:20 PM   #81
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I've seen Dan on TV before. Always enjoyed his viewpoints.

Yeah. Sorry, that whole argument doesn't really hold water anymore. My grandparents used to be similar-they certainly never wished black people ill will, never wanted any harm to come to them, didn't march with the KKK or whatnot. They just, you know, didn't want to interact with them any more than they absolutely had to. Nowadays we'd decry that mindset swiftly, I'm not sure why we still hold reserve when it comes to homosexuality.

I'm glad that woman is fully on board that what happened to that young man was horrible. I would expect any person with any sense of reason and sanity to be sympathetic to and disturbed by that situation. But Dan's right-her views do not help the situation at all. If she truly feels that nobody is better than anyone else, that we're all imperfect and yada, yada, yada, then why frown on the idea of gay marriage at all? I don't get that.

Besides that, in regards to her comment about his supposed hypocrisy-well, you can choose your faith. You can't choose who you fall in love with. There's a difference. That, and I'll gladly show respect to anyone who has respect for other people. Not supporting gay marriage, to me, seems a disrespectful position to take.

Angela
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Old 10-04-2010, 07:26 PM   #82
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Besides that, in regards to her comment about his supposed hypocrisy-well, you can choose your faith. You can't choose who you fall in love with.
No, because we are all created in God's image, so why would God create such imperfect beings like homosexuals? It's impossible to comprehend that He would do such a thing.

Therefore, the only sane conclusion is that being gay is a choice rather than genetic. So with that in mind, anyone that's tired of the derogatory comments, the bigotry, the dehumanizing behaviour, can very simply stop being gay. That's all there is to it! No need for such despair.
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Old 10-04-2010, 07:31 PM   #83
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I'm sorry your feelings were hurt by my comments.

No, wait. I'm not. Gay kids are dying. So let's try to keep things in perspective: fuck your feelings.

A question: do you support atheist marriage? Interfaith marriage? Divorce and remarriage? All legal, of course, and there's no Christian movement to deny marriage rights to atheists or people marrying outside their respective faiths or to people divorcing and remarrying. Why the hell not?
So, if you're against gay marriage you're a murderer. But what about the gay people that are themselves against gay marriage? Are they murderers too?

See, frankly, the above quote to me is precisely the type of over-the-top take-no-prisoners style of hyperbole that gives the US gay rights movement a bad name. Savage basically takes an opportunity for dialogue into an opportunity to scream insults.

Why is it that in Ireland gay civil marriage is now legal yet in the US the 'debate' continues, with the two sides flinging insults at each other? Could it be because the Irish gay rights movement is less strident, doesn't exploit suicides (and we don't even know why the student killed himself) for political reasons and that that approach actually works better?
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Old 10-04-2010, 10:08 PM   #84
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does the Irish right wing react with the same apocalyptic vitriol that the American right wing does?
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Old 10-05-2010, 08:52 AM   #85
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At least five gay teens have committed suicide within the same week that Tyler did

Parents: Bullying drove Cy-Fair 8th-grader to suicide | Houston & Texas News | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle



Asher Brown's worn-out tennis shoes still sit in the living room of his Cypress-area home while his student progress report — filled with straight A's — rests on the coffee table.

The eighth-grader killed himself last week. He shot himself in the head after enduring what his mother and stepfather say was constant harassment from four other students at Hamilton Middle School in the Cypress-Fairbanks Independent School District.

Brown, his family said, was "bullied to death" — picked on for his small size, his religion and because he did not wear designer clothes and shoes. Kids also accused him of being gay, some of them performing mock gay acts on him in his physical education class, his mother and stepfather said.

The 13-year-old's parents said they had complained about the bullying to Hamilton Middle School officials during the past 18 months, but claimed their concerns fell on deaf ears.

David and Amy Truong said they made several visits to the school to complain about the harassment, and Amy Truong said she made numerous phone calls to the school that were never returned.

Cy Fair ISD officials said Monday that they never received any complaints from Brown's parents before the suicide about the way the boy was being treated at school.

School district spokeswoman Kelli Durham, whose husband Alan Durham is a Hamilton assistant principal, said no students, school employees or the boy's parents ever reported that he was being bullied.

That statement infuriated the Truongs, who accused the school district of protecting the bullies and their parents.

"That's absolutely inaccurate — it's completely false," Amy Truong said. "I did not hallucinate phone calls to counselors and assistant principals. We have no reason to make this up. … It's like they're calling us liars."

David Truong said, "We want justice. The people here need to be held responsible and to be stopped. It did happen. There are witnesses everywhere."

Numerous comments from parents and students on the Web site of KRIV-TV Channel 26, which also reported a story about Brown's death, stated that the boy had been bullied by classmates for several years and claimed Cy-Fair ISD does nothing to stop such harassment.

Durham said the school counselor and an assistant principal received an e-mail from Amy Truong earlier this month, asking them to keep an eye on her son, but Durham said it was because of ongoing concerns at home and not about bullying.

Brown was found dead on the floor of his stepfather's closet at the family's home in the 11700 block of Cypresswood about 4:30 p.m. Thursday. He used his stepfather's 9 mm Beretta, stored on one of the closet's shelves, to kill himself. He left no note. David Truong found the teen's body when he arrived home from work.

On the morning of his death, the teen told his stepfather he was gay, but Truong said he was fine with the disclosure. "We didn't condemn," he said.

His parents said Brown had been called names and endured harassment from other students since he joined Cy-Fair ISD two years ago. As a result, he stuck with a small group of friends who suffered similar harassment from other students, his parents said.

His most recent humiliation occurred the day before his suicide, when another student tripped Brown as he walked down a flight of stairs at the school, his parents said.

When Brown hit the stairway landing and went to retrieve his book bag, the other student kicked his books everywhere and kicked Brown down the remaining flight of stairs, the Truongs said.

Durham said that incident was investigated, but turned up no witnesses or video footage to corroborate the couple's claims.

The Truongs say they just want the harassment to stop so other students do not suffer like their son did and so another family does not have to endure such a tragedy.

"Our son is just the extreme case of what happens when (someone is) just relentless," Amy Truong said.

To the bullies, she added, "I hope you're happy with what you've done. I hope you got what you wanted and you're just real satisfied with yourself."

Services for Brown will be held Saturday.
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Old 10-05-2010, 09:16 AM   #86
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Where are the parents of these bullying children? Where were the parents of the kids at Rutgers?
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Old 10-05-2010, 07:23 PM   #87
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does the Irish right wing react with the same apocalyptic vitriol that the American right wing does?
To be fair, no. The Irish Catholic right-wing has been largely emasculated due to the child abuse scandals, and other issues.
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Old 10-05-2010, 10:58 PM   #88
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Have you guys been seeing these celebrity PSAs? There have been a bunch of 'em. Celebs making short video messages reaching out to gay youth, urging them to stay strong, letting them know that it gets better, etc.

Here's one from Tim Gunn, explaining that he attempted suicide when he was 17. It certainly got better for him. Dude could probably buy a few small countries at this point.

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Old 10-05-2010, 11:01 PM   #89
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Where are the parents of these bullying children? Where were the parents of the kids at Rutgers?


Martha. That is exactly what I was thinking.

I lost a very good friend of mine. During our college years. He was "gay" and blew his brains out with a gun.
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Old 10-06-2010, 12:00 AM   #90
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Where are the parents of these bullying children? Where were the parents of the kids at Rutgers?
What do you expect them to do? It sounds to me like quite a few of the ones who have commited suicide have had their parents support.

It's society that needs to change. It's really depressing to think that it's come to this.

I would just like to know why two 13 year olds have commited suicide. Honestly, I'd expect someone of that age to draw a gun on someone else before they draw it on themselves. Consideirng they were only 13, dont you think that it either must have been really bad bullying or really overly dramatic handling of the situation or maybe they were influenced by the other suicides?

I mean... how can a 13 year old, who likely just entered puberty, decide they are gay, come out of the closet that fast, and have enough bullying to want to commit suicide? Seems awfully quick...

I'd say each suicide is influencing the next.
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