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Old 10-09-2010, 11:41 PM   #181
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With respect, this is all strictly anecdotal, we cannot extrapolate into assuming that gay students are less tolerated or more subject to bullying in schools as compared to a previous generation - surely it's the opposite if anything?

I am also deeply sceptical of the assumption that bullying is something new in schools, even of the suggestion that it has somehow massively increased in recent years - BVS has already cited the stats that stated that suicide rates among teens have only shown a slight increase - and that might be due to better reporting. Or, actually, it might be nothing to do with peer pressure, it might be due to the pressures they're being put under by their so-called elders and betters - have we considered this possibility?

In Ireland at the moment, it's quite fashionable to be gay, a lot of the young fellas walk around the place as though they were auditioning to be presenters on Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. I accept America is different, with the organised homophobia promoted by some of the right wing churches.
I respectfully disagree.

I understand homosexuality was illegal in Ireland until the mid 1990's or so. Same for divorce. Catholic and Anglican would represent just about all of you.

As far as "church organised homophobia" in America? I have only heard of one. The West Borough Baptist Church. They are a cult. Who are not in anyway associated with the mainstream Protestant churches.

America was a different place for my generation. (Baby Boomers) Of course there was crime. Not as much of it as there is now. I am speaking from my own life experience. Just as you are.

None of my friends, gay or straight, were ever afraid to go to school. If there was a fight. Others broke it up. There wasn't this gang mentality. I'm sorry if you disagree with me. But, we were more tolerant of others. "To each their own." Was how we felt.

Granted, I came of age during Glam Rock, Disco and Punk music era. If you don't believe what I am saying. Ask people who are in mine and Bono's age group.


My son, before he was promoted to his new position. Installed computer systems in the public schools. He was told if a fight brakes out between the kids. You can't touch them or brake it up. Their parents will sue you.

He was literally shocked one day when a first grader said f-you to his teacher. This so called little darling had some ajustment issues. At another school, a parent walked into the class and threatened to beat the you know what out of the teacher. Cause, she mentioned "little Johnny needed to turn in his homework."

Insane parents, produce insane kids.
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Old 10-10-2010, 12:15 AM   #182
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As far as "church organised homophobia" in America? I have only heard of one. The West Borough Baptist Church. They are a cult. Who are not in anyway associated with the mainstream Protestant churches.


the Mormon Church.
the Catholic Church.
the Baptist Church.

just to begin.
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Old 10-10-2010, 12:52 AM   #183
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the Mormon Church.
the Catholic Church.
the Baptist Church.

just to begin.
I'm sorry Irvine.

I can only speak for myself. I don't hate anyone.
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Old 10-10-2010, 03:51 AM   #184
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In Ireland at the moment, it's quite fashionable to be gay, a lot of the young fellas walk around the place as though they were auditioning to be presenters on Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. I accept America is different, with the organised homophobia promoted by some of the right wing churches.
Indeed, there are likely a number of differences we can find between the way these issues are treated here versus how Ireland handles them. I like the fact that Ireland doesn't seem to have quite the intolerance about homosexuality that the U.S. still has in some form, I find that very refreshing (and add that to my endless list of reasons why I like and want to someday visit that country ).

I do have a question, though. Is it so much that those young men are finding the idea of actually being gay fashionable, or is it more that there's something about some of the things associated with homosexuality they find fashionable (for instance, the glamour party world that some gay people inhabit, or the whole stereotypical "gay best friend who's sensitive and will listen to and pay attention to details about girls and help them with their clothing decisions and such" deal-I'm sure guys notice how often women flock to men with those characteristics-or stuff like that)? I don't know how much you would know about that topic to properly answer, but if you do have any ideas/theories on that, or if anyone else out there does, I'd be interested to find out.

My mom brought home the latest issue of People today and there's a whole section in there about bullying-it talks about this case as well as other stories. After reading it, the first thing I thought was that I find it rather appropriate that that documentary 'Waiting For Superman' is coming out now. That documentary discusses why U.S. schools are so far behind other areas of the world, in science and math especially, but we're not doing that hot across the board (we're number one in confidence, however, so, um, yay?!). Naturally, of course, there's all sorts of reasons as to why this is, and we could be here for days discussing all these problems and talking about how to fix the education system in this country.

But I honestly think one of the biggest reasons schools are having such difficulty nowadays is because school officials have to now be social workers and take on the parent role and essentially raise an entire group of children because nobody else out there will. I don't know when we forgot this concept, but the sole purpose of school is to teach kids reading, writing, arithmetic, science, and history. It is not there for parents to dump their kids off and expect one teacher to take care of and look after a whole class full of kids. It is not there to cater to every parent's personal whims about what they do and don't want being taught to their children. It is not there to teach kids not to do things they should've been taught not to do before they left their houses. It is not there to search children's bags and coats and clothes for weapons and drugs and drink and all sorts of things, things that, again, should've been dealt with before the kid walked out the door of their home.

But nowadays schools have to shoulder all that responsiblity that should be delegated elsewhere, and that leaves very little time to actually teach the things they're supposed to be teaching. Certainly, during the time kids are at school, what happens on school grounds is for the school to handle. But if we took care of even half these problems before the kids even set foot on campus, that would make things a hell of a lot easier. They may even be able to catch bullying problems that still might occasionally spring up even quicker and have a better time responding to and dealing with such issues before they get to extremes, because they won't be so bogged down with 20 trillion other things they have to attend to.

Angela
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Old 10-10-2010, 04:12 AM   #185
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I do not agree with the law suits that are being slapped down by grieving parents on the school board for not doing enough to protect their children. While I do not know how the schools treated acts of bullying, I think people need to realise how hopeless some cases are. The power of a teacher/principal etc is very low these days. Many parents pass on their disrespect of teachers and education to their children and do absolutely NOTHING to back a teacher up, or deal with a distruptive unruly child. We cannot expell the child from a government school so what do we do? I have had a few cases over the years where every day is a battle with a child to do anything positive in class. Schools have lost their power, and if we do not have the complete support from all parties, the bullied, the bully and the other teachers in a school then nothing changes and its still all shit.
While I do believe that children should have a little resistance at school, a few days where someone is mean to them so they can learn to deal with others and grow a bit of a thick skin and learn some coping skills which should help them later in life, I do feel helpless when trying to solve a problem like ongoing bullying when both parties can't come to any type of agreement.

We need to focus on the consequences of bullying, in real regard to the parents of the bully to curb behaviour before it makes more students who obviously have deep rooted mental issues that then cause them to kill themselves because they feel there is no oter option. We also need to have full time counsellors in both high school and primary school to seek out and diagnose children who are hig risk, both bullies and the bullied.

edit: I also wanted to say i totally agree with Leisje's argument about the maturity and coping skills in children/teenagers as well. I see this a lot as well.
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Old 10-10-2010, 02:06 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
the Mormon Church.
the Catholic Church.
the Baptist Church.

just to begin.
the Christian Reformed Church (CRCNA)

Quote:
http://www.crcna.org/pages/positions_homosexuality.cfm

Homosexuality
Position

Homosexuality is a condition of disordered sexuality that reflects the brokenness of our sinful world.

[....]

Homosexualism (that is, explicit homosexual practice), however, is incompatible with obedience to the will of God as revealed in Scripture.

Astor, unfortunately I have to disagree with your disagreeing of Financeguy. I work for a private college under the wing of my aforementioned church denomination and overall, homosexuality is NOT acceptable to these people. Most of the LGBT people I know from work and school (I went to the same college I now work for) were told outwardly by their own families and churches that their sexual orientation is inherently sinful. One kid that worked in my department said when he came out to his parents, they told him, "It's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve." Of course there are plenty of more liberal circles of younger professors and college students that don't give a rip who partners with who, but the majority of the people (and the most outspoken and the most powerful) are homophobic. The denomination itself condemns homosexuality.

I, of course, do not agree, and I'm in the circle of people who don't feel it is our business to know or care who sleeps with who. To me it is disturbing and ironic that the most conservative people spend so much time obsessing over other people's sex lives.
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Old 10-10-2010, 02:27 PM   #187
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To me it is disturbing and ironic that the most conservative people spend so much time obsessing over other people's sex lives.
This.
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Old 10-10-2010, 05:10 PM   #188
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I understand homosexuality was illegal in Ireland until the mid 1990's or so. Same for divorce.
That is entirely correct. And now the (historically) conservative Fianna Fail government has legislated for civil partnership and there is a government minister, also of the historically conservative Fianna Fail party, whose responsibilities include outreach for gay people in rural areas, and a potential candidate for president is an out gay man.

Ireland Launches LGBT Support Program for Rural Demographic | News | Advocate.com

David Norris, Senator and human rights activist, Dublin, Ireland

We have come a long way in a few years.


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America was a different place for my generation. (Baby Boomers) Of course there was crime. Not as much of it as there is now. I am speaking from my own life experience. Just as you are.
The statistics for NY, for example, show a dramatic reduction in crime since the 1970s.


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Granted, I came of age during Glam Rock, Disco and Punk music era. If you don't believe what I am saying. Ask people who are in mine and Bono's age group.
I know what you're saying. Perhaps there was more tolerance as regards different ways of dressing. But interesting that you mention Bono. He has in a number of interviews spoken of his memories of his teenage years in the 1970s as filled with violent incidents, Gavin Friday getting beaten up by local bootboys for wearing make-up, and that sort of thing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by A stor View Post
My son, before he was promoted to his new position. Installed computer systems in the public schools. He was told if a fight brakes out between the kids. You can't touch them or brake it up. Their parents will sue you.

He was literally shocked one day when a first grader said f-you to his teacher. This so called little darling had some ajustment issues. At another school, a parent walked into the class and threatened to beat the you know what out of the teacher. Cause, she mentioned "little Johnny needed to turn in his homework."
When I went to school in the 1980s there were occasionally staged fights at an underground car-park near the school (they were usually 90% bluster. I don't think anyone ever got seriously hurt). Now granted, I don't remember any first graders saying f- you to a teacher.
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Old 10-10-2010, 08:15 PM   #189
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Thank you for your reply Finance Guy. Sadly, homophobia still exist every where. Same for other types of bullying. Unfortunetly, I have never been to Ireland. I could never afford to go. But, I believe what you are telling me.

Of course there was bullying during my youth. We weren't a perfect generation, far from it. Though, there seemed to be more fist fights (after school) between the boys, than girls. I am speaking of course from my own teenage experiences. I was lucky. I got to hang out with some really nice kids.

I think the difference now. Is that most kids have a computer and can easily use this as a way to threaten others. It is easier to harass someone via the internet. Then it would be face to face.

The first grader I had mentioned. I should have noted before. Was in a school for emotionally disturbed children. Not a regular public school. I don't hear any of my neighbors' young children talking like that.

P.S. I am sorry if my above post sounded harsh. I didn't mean for it to be. It is just so upsetting to me as a parent and grand parent. That some parents don't teach their children to value others. I'm sure. You would agree. These stories we have read. Are absolutely horrible.

Take care and again thanks!
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Old 10-10-2010, 08:17 PM   #190
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Indeed, there are likely a number of differences we can find between the way these issues are treated here versus how Ireland handles them. I like the fact that Ireland doesn't seem to have quite the intolerance about homosexuality that the U.S. still has in some form, I find that very refreshing (and add that to my endless list of reasons why I like and want to someday visit that country ).

I do have a question, though. Is it so much that those young men are finding the idea of actually being gay fashionable, or is it more that there's something about some of the things associated with homosexuality they find fashionable (for instance, the glamour party world that some gay people inhabit, or the whole stereotypical "gay best friend who's sensitive and will listen to and pay attention to details about girls and help them with their clothing decisions and such" deal-I'm sure guys notice how often women flock to men with those characteristics-or stuff like that)? I don't know how much you would know about that topic to properly answer, but if you do have any ideas/theories on that, or if anyone else out there does, I'd be interested to find out.

My mom brought home the latest issue of People today and there's a whole section in there about bullying-it talks about this case as well as other stories. After reading it, the first thing I thought was that I find it rather appropriate that that documentary 'Waiting For Superman' is coming out now. That documentary discusses why U.S. schools are so far behind other areas of the world, in science and math especially, but we're not doing that hot across the board (we're number one in confidence, however, so, um, yay?!). Naturally, of course, there's all sorts of reasons as to why this is, and we could be here for days discussing all these problems and talking about how to fix the education system in this country.

But I honestly think one of the biggest reasons schools are having such difficulty nowadays is because school officials have to now be social workers and take on the parent role and essentially raise an entire group of children because nobody else out there will. I don't know when we forgot this concept, but the sole purpose of school is to teach kids reading, writing, arithmetic, science, and history. It is not there for parents to dump their kids off and expect one teacher to take care of and look after a whole class full of kids. It is not there to cater to every parent's personal whims about what they do and don't want being taught to their children. It is not there to teach kids not to do things they should've been taught not to do before they left their houses. It is not there to search children's bags and coats and clothes for weapons and drugs and drink and all sorts of things, things that, again, should've been dealt with before the kid walked out the door of their home.

But nowadays schools have to shoulder all that responsiblity that should be delegated elsewhere, and that leaves very little time to actually teach the things they're supposed to be teaching. Certainly, during the time kids are at school, what happens on school grounds is for the school to handle. But if we took care of even half these problems before the kids even set foot on campus, that would make things a hell of a lot easier. They may even be able to catch bullying problems that still might occasionally spring up even quicker and have a better time responding to and dealing with such issues before they get to extremes, because they won't be so bogged down with 20 trillion other things they have to attend to.

Angela
Excellent post Angela! Thanks for sharing.
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Old 10-10-2010, 08:30 PM   #191
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the Christian Reformed Church (CRCNA)




Astor, unfortunately I have to disagree with your disagreeing of Financeguy. I work for a private college under the wing of my aforementioned church denomination and overall, homosexuality is NOT acceptable to these people. Most of the LGBT people I know from work and school (I went to the same college I now work for) were told outwardly by their own families and churches that their sexual orientation is inherently sinful. One kid that worked in my department said when he came out to his parents, they told him, "It's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve." Of course there are plenty of more liberal circles of younger professors and college students that don't give a rip who partners with who, but the majority of the people (and the most outspoken and the most powerful) are homophobic. The denomination itself condemns homosexuality.

I, of course, do not agree, and I'm in the circle of people who don't feel it is our business to know or care who sleeps with who. To me it is disturbing and ironic that the most conservative people spend so much time obsessing over other people's sex lives.

Thank you Liesje. I do agree with everything you are saying. You would know much better than I would. Because of your work experience. The West Borough group was just one. I thought of at the time. But, yes religion can and does make gay folks feel not welcomed.

Everything you said is true. Because you and I, and everyone here have no problem with the GLBT community. Doesn't mean. It dosen't exist.
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Old 10-10-2010, 10:29 PM   #192
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an epidemic? or has this always happened and, finally, we are hearing about it:



Quote:
North grad took own life after week of 'toxic' comments

By Andrew Knittle The Norman Transcript
Sun Oct 10, 2010, 02:48 AM CDT

NORMAN — A week after attending a Norman City Council meeting where a heated debate played out in public, 19-year-old Zach Harrington took his own life at his family’s home in Norman.

At the Sept. 28 meeting Harrington attended at City Hall, the council acknowledged receipt of a proclamation recognizing October as Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender History Month in the city. Council voted 7 to 1 in favor of it, with only Councilman Dan Quinn casting a nay vote.

Support for and opposition to the proclamation were fairly even and the public comment portion of the agenda item lasted for three hours — the entire time allotted.

The entire process was an exercise in representative government, with both sides — and those in between — given their chance to speak their minds.

One man said he moved to Norman because he thought it was the kind of place that would never accept the GLBT community with open arms. A woman, who described herself as “bi-racial,” said she was tired of the GLBT plight being compared to Civil Rights.

Some of those who opposed the proclamation claimed that members of the GLBT community would use it to infiltrate the public school system, essentially allowing the “gay lifestyle” to become a part of the curriculum.

Others claimed that council recognizing October as GLBT History Month was a waste of their time. Some members of the audience even suggested that any council members voting in favor of the proclamation may have trouble getting reelected.

Numerous residents also claimed the Bible was their guiding light, citing the ancient text as their primary reason for opposing the proclamation and the GLBT community in general.

And for those in attendance, it was hard to ignore the intolerant grumblings, the exasperated sighs and cold, hard stares that followed comments from supporters of the GLBT proclamation.

Even most council members admitted that a majority of the e-mails and phone calls they fielded regarding the proclamation were against it.

Harrington’s family, who described him as a private young man who internalized his feelings and emotions, said it was this “toxic” environment at the Sept. 28 council meeting that may have pushed their gay son and brother over the edge.

Nikki Harrington, Zach’s older sister, said her brother likely took all of the negative things said about members of the GLBT community straight to heart.

“When he was sitting there, I’m sure he was internalizing everything and analyzing everything … that’s the kind of person he was,” she said. “I’m sure he took it personally. Everything that was said.”

Harrington’s father, Van, said he wasn’t sure why his son went to the meeting, especially after his experiences in Norman once he revealed that he was gay as a teenager. He said he feels his son may have glimpsed a hard reality at the Sept. 28 council meeting, a place where the same sentiments that quietly tormented him in high school were being shouted out and applauded by adults the same age as his own parents.


“I don’t think it was a place where he would hear something to make him feel more accepted by the community,” he said. “For somebody like Zach, it (the meeting) was probably very hard to sit through.”

Zach Harrington, who graduated from Norman North High School in 2009, had been struggling with acceptance for years. Despite being a talented musician “who could play any instrument he picked up,” Van Harrington said his son asked to leave school early during his senior year and finish his diploma in a separate program.

“He feared for his safety on many occasions at (Norman North), and other people like him,” Van said. “Even though he was 6-4, he was passive and I’m sure being gay in that environment didn’t help.”

Nikki Harrington, who is eight years older than her brother and also attended Norman North, said she recalls the way members of the GLBT community were treated during her time there.

“There was one gay guy in my high school at the time, and he was made fun of all the time,” she said. “It was a pretty much non-stop thing at school.”

Harrington received a $1,000 scholarship from the Norman chapter of Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays when he graduated high school and briefly studied music at the University of Central Oklahoma. He had been living in Arkansas for about a month prior to his death.

In high school he was a member of the band, orchestra and the “first-ever male captain of the color guard,” Van Harrington said, adding that his son wrote an anthology while at Norman North to document his young life.

“He could have done whatever he wanted to do,” he said.

Both Nikki and Van said they hope people will think about the things they say in public. Both feel that words can do more than hurt feelings, especially when they come from our friends and neighbors.

“When we talk about our feelings in a hypothetical way and we send our toxic thoughts out in a public setting that way, they will affect people in a negative way,” Nikki said. “People need to think about the things they are saying and ask themselves, ‘Is this right?’”

Harrington’s parents don’t seem to hold any resentment toward the community that spoke out against Zach and others like him, even with the loss of their son not yet a week old.

“I don’t have any anger … I just hope those people look inside themselves and put themselves in somebody else’s shoes before saying things like that,” Van Harrington said. “Maybe if more of us did that, well, maybe things would’ve turned out different.”

Harrington’s mother, Nancy, said she hopes that other parents can learn a lesson her family is now paying for in sorrow and loss.

“This can happen to anybody,” she said. “No matter how diligent we are.”

North grad took own life after week of 'toxic' comments Headlines The Norman Transcript
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Old 10-10-2010, 10:40 PM   #193
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I guess we can see now where the bullying kids get their ideas and acceptance.
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Old 10-10-2010, 11:26 PM   #194
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Pretty much . Sorry, AGAIN, to hear of this happening AGAIN.

What an intelligent bunch some of the people in that article are:

Quote:
One man said he moved to Norman because he thought it was the kind of place that would never accept the GLBT community with open arms.
The fuck kind of reasoning is that? Sorry for the language, but seriously...that makes ZERO sense. How in the world have we been losing the fight against idiocy like this for so long?

Quote:
A woman, who described herself as “bi-racial,” said she was tired of the GLBT plight being compared to Civil Rights.
I'm really failing to understand why this comparison is so bothersome to some people. I think the two fights are quite similar.

Also, A stor, thanks .

Angela
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Old 10-10-2010, 11:39 PM   #195
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Quote:
Paladino Attacks Gays in Brooklyn Speech
By ELIZABETH A. HARRIS

The Republican candidate for governor, Carl P. Paladino, told a gathering in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, on Sunday that children should not be “brainwashed” into thinking that homosexuality was acceptable, and criticized his opponent, Attorney General Andrew M. Cuomo, for marching in a gay pride parade earlier this year.

Addressing Orthodox Jewish leaders, Mr. Paladino described his opposition to same-sex marriage.

“That’s not how God created us,” he said, reading from a prepared address.

“I just think my children and your children would be much better off and much more successful getting married and raising a family, and I don’t want them brainwashed into thinking that homosexuality is an equally valid and successful option — it isn’t.”

And then, to applause at Congregation Shaarei Chaim, he said: “I didn’t march in the gay parade this year — the gay pride parade this year. My opponent did, and that’s not the example we should be showing our children.”

Newsday.com reported that Mr. Paladino’s prepared text had included the sentence: “There is nothing to be proud of in being a dysfunctional homosexual.” But Mr. Paladino omitted the sentence in his speech.


About an hour after Mr. Paladino’s remarks, Mr. Cuomo’s campaign released a statement condemning them.

“Mr. Paladino’s statement displays a stunning homophobia and a glaring disregard for basic equality,” it said. “These comments along with other views he has espoused make it clear that he is way out of the mainstream and is unfit to represent New York.”

Mr. Paladino declined a request to be interviewed after his appearance. His campaign manager, Michael R. Caputo, denied assertions that Mr. Paladino was antigay, and noted that he employed a gay man on his campaign staff.

“Carl Paladino is simply expressing the views that he holds in his heart as a Catholic,” Mr. Caputo said in a telephone interview. “Carl Paladino is not homophobic, and neither is the Catholic Church.”

“The majority of New Yorkers agree with him,” Mr. Caputo added. He said the campaign had done its own polling.


During his appearance at the synagogue, with reporters in attendance, Mr. Paladino said: “Don’t misquote me as wanting to hurt homosexual people in any way. That would be a dastardly lie.”

A same-sex marriage bill was defeated last year by New York lawmakers. Mr. Paladino has said that, unlike Mr. Cuomo, a Democrat, he would veto such a bill if he were governor. But Mr. Caputo said that if the same measure passed in a statewide referendum, Mr. Paladino would uphold the law.

Brian Ellner, head of the marriage initiative for the gay advocacy group Human Rights Campaign, said that the Republican’s remarks were insensitive given a recent swirl of news about suicide in the gay community and antigay violence.

The New York City Police Department announced on Friday that nine men in the Bronx had lured three men they believed were gay and then tortured them, burning them and sodomizing one of them with a small baseball bat. Last month, a student at Rutgers University jumped off the George Washington Bridge after two classmates broadcast his sexual encounter with a man over the Internet.

Mr. Paladino’s statements in Brooklyn were first broadcast by Azi Paybarah, a reporter for WNYC, and Reid Epstein of Newsday, on Twitter.

A recent CNN pollfound that 58 percent of people in New York were in favor of gay marriage.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/11/ny...gewanted=print
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