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Old 07-05-2010, 07:31 PM   #76
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That's not exactly "shutting down coal companies".

We've seen where no regulations gets us.
You know what I mean when I talk about regulations. If you regulate a business to bankruptcy it's very different than asking for reasonable regulations on oil companies to improve safety. It's a matter of degree not 0 regulations or regulations everywhere.
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Old 07-05-2010, 07:42 PM   #77
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Here's another dose of reality

Prices rise as New Zealand passes emissions trading scheme - Telegraph

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Prices rise as New Zealand passes emissions trading scheme

Petrol and power prices have risen sharply in New Zealand after the government introduced a controversial emissions trading scheme.

The government has pressed ahead with plans to slash the nation's carbon output, despite widespread opposition and New Zealand's larger neighbour Australia shelving its own scheme.

Motorists were hit by a 3c (1.4p) rise in the price of a litre of petrol overnight, while householders face a 5 per cent increase in gas and electricity prices.

It was the first step in a complex scheme, universally referred to as "the ETS", to slash carbon emissions back to 1990 levels.

Some disgruntled consumers marked the launch by wearing T-shirts with the meaning of the letters changed to read "Extra Tax Sucks".

Businesses facing cost increases have warned they will be forced to raise prices of everyday items, such as the bread on supermarket shelves.

Under the scheme, to be fully phased in over several years, companies trade carbon credits known as New Zealand Units (NZUs).

Industries that are net creators of carbon must buy the units from the government or from sellers whose businesses absorb carbon, such as those that plant trees.

The units can be traded internationally with other countries implementing a similar scheme under the Kyoto Protocol.

Nick Smith, the Climate Change Minister, who has championed the scheme, says it is the first to be introduced outside Europe.

That claim has opponents asking why New Zealand is not waiting for bigger countries such as Australia and the United States to move first.

Dr Smith said New Zealand had to act because its greenhouse gas emissions have increased by 25 per cent over the past 20 years.

"It's actually about New Zealand starting the path, starting the change to a less carbon intensive economy.

"The hard truth around climate change is there is no free lunch." he said.

"If you want to make change, if you want to reduce emissions, then there is going to be a cost."

Critics argue that the gesture is largely symbolic because New Zealand, with a population of only four million and very little heavy industry, contributes only 0.2 per cent of total global emissions.
Looks like Australia dodged a bullet.
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Old 07-05-2010, 08:33 PM   #78
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Here's another dose of reality

Prices rise as New Zealand passes emissions trading scheme - Telegraph



Looks like Australia dodged a bullet.

Yes, and if/when it happens here, Americans will go crazy.

Obama "Under my plan,cap and trade , electricity rates will necessarily Skyrocket"

Enron
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Old 07-05-2010, 09:06 PM   #79
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Yeah but there are professionals who get paid to comment on it and I already wasted hours on many of these believers and they are going to believe what they want and alarmism is their tool. It's like trying to debate with a megaphone with an agenda. The paid commentators and funded scientists are already doing this debate and making most of the headway.

But by all means if you find it fun to prove them wrong we already have a thread right here you can peruse on top of what we have already learned recently about many faults of the IPCC reports.

BBC: What Happened to Global Warming?

Have fun.

cool thanks
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Old 07-06-2010, 01:51 AM   #80
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Here's another dose of reality

Prices rise as New Zealand passes emissions trading scheme - Telegraph

Looks like Australia dodged a bullet.
so...do you agree or disagree with them charging more for this? i'm honestly curious, i can see both sides with this one.
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Old 07-06-2010, 10:18 AM   #81
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so...do you agree or disagree with them charging more for this? i'm honestly curious, i can see both sides with this one.
so that money, is supposed to go to some poor nation like sommalia, to help the warlords give them a better life.

you think once the money goes , any part of th people will ever see it?

No, but you can bet the Gov, or FOG will be very happy to take it.

It is a scam. New Zealand doesn't have any reason to pay this. They produce a zillionth of any co2
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Old 07-06-2010, 10:24 AM   #82
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Individual nations may not create a lot of emissions by quantity but taken all up it's enough to make a difference. It's a tragedy of the commons situation.
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Old 07-06-2010, 10:34 AM   #83
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Maybe Al Gore being a sex crazed poodle has something to do with Climategate I never heard that before, sex crazed poodle..

"Get off of me you lummox"
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Old 07-06-2010, 11:10 AM   #84
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Maybe Al Gore being a sex crazed poodle has something to do with Climategate I never heard that before, sex crazed poodle..

"Get off of me you lummox"


this is why i don't believe that woman.

nobody talks like that.
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Old 07-06-2010, 11:13 AM   #85
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Yes that's odd. They don't even say lummox on Mad Men.
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Old 07-06-2010, 11:21 AM   #86
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so...do you agree or disagree with them charging more for this? i'm honestly curious, i can see both sides with this one.
We're in a worldwide recession. We are not going to get out of it if we charge more or anything at all. As stated in the article New Zealand is doing this but other countries are not so CO2 reduction isn't being achieved (they don't have much of an energy industry) and the science hasn't proved that it will cook our planet in fact the more recent science says it only marginally affects it (meaning more CO2 particles hold less heat than the CO2 particles that were already there helping to create the greenhouse effect). Natural cycles of water vapour have more impact. There are also other scientists that actually like CO2 and want more of it because they can see plant life benefiting from it.
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Old 07-06-2010, 11:27 AM   #87
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There are also other scientists that actually like CO2 and want more of it because they can see plant life benefiting from it.
And we call them quacks.

Seriously, no scientist worth their salt believes this. That guy who did the experiment in his backyard using aquariums doesn't count. Anyone who's tested this on larger scales have realized this. Learn what is true science and what is junk, do not let your political affiliation steer you.
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Old 07-06-2010, 11:33 AM   #88
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We're in a worldwide recession. We are not going to get out of it if we charge more or anything at all. As stated in the article New Zealand is doing this but other countries are not so CO2 reduction isn't being achieved (they don't have much of an energy industry) and the science hasn't proved that it will cook our planet in fact the more recent science says it only marginally affects it (meaning more CO2 particles hold less heat than the CO2 particles that were already there helping to create the greenhouse effect). Natural cycles of water vapour have more impact. There are also other scientists that actually like CO2 and want more of it because they can see plant life benefiting from it.
new zealand was also the only country that allowed women to vote at first. someone always has to be the first to do something. there's public transport to be had, and then you won't be paying more for gas. i can understand why people are up in arms about this, but the world as a whole needs to stop relying on oil so much, especially foreign oil.
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Old 07-06-2010, 11:47 AM   #89
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Individual nations may not create a lot of emissions by quantity but taken all up it's enough to make a difference. It's a tragedy of the commons situation.
so no 200 truck rock tours would save the planet? cranes. Bad diesl fumes. No jets? every little bit helps right?

Last I saw, New Zealand it was a pretty "green" country. Lots of trees.
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Old 07-06-2010, 11:48 AM   #90
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And we call them quacks.

Seriously, no scientist worth their salt believes this. That guy who did the experiment in his backyard using aquariums doesn't count. Anyone who's tested this on larger scales have realized this. Learn what is true science and what is junk, do not let your political affiliation steer you.
The reason why there is a divergence in the tree ring samples in recent times is because of increased CO2 emissions in modern times. The trees are getting bigger and plants greener. You calling them quacks and talking about the "true" science simply means that you will ignore political affiliation with the U.N. because appeal to authority works on you better than it does on me. It's not about a resume. It's about claims that are so backed up with evidence that it becomes convincing. And even then science doesn't stop. CO2 is not the main driver of climate change and those who made that claim FAILED. It's up to the people making the claims to prove themselves not the rest of the public to hand over sovreignty to scientists (who financially benefit) and politicians (who financially benefit) and green companies that can't compete (who financially benefit). Furthermore no cap and trade in other countries is stringent enough to actually reduce CO2 to any agreed amount precisely because of the economic consequences so the goal is actually fake and scientists know we can't meet those goals so who is being fooled?

The U.S. is in a huge debt hole and to even contemplate energy taxes (which always are passed onto the consumer) is either on purpose because socialists already have a track record to use crisis to increase the size of government, or the politicians are completely deluded about economics. The U.S. needs to elect politicians that will actually increase economic growth. People who don't care about economic growth either are going to benefit from these policies or are unknowningly hurting themselves.

BTW BVS the reason why there is a political backlash against AGW is precisely because AGW has political and economic consequences. Why should I ignore politics and economics? Who's bringing up the subject first? Isn't worldwide cap and trade related to politics and economics? Shouldn't we get the science right before we hand over sovreignty to a world government (like was attempted at Copenhagen)? Shouldn't we look at how Africans will be impacted if they can only use unreliable green energy to develop their economies? The reason why Bono shifted towards this topic is precisely because Al Gore promised that some cap and trade money would go to allieviating poverty. This is because everyone knows that energy taxes and economic growth are at odds with each other. This confirms what conservatives say all along about the left is that they want people to be on handouts and not develop in perpetuity. The contradictions will have to be dealt with before cap and trade can be taken seriously.
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